Land confines suddenly brought into question after property sold next door

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Land confines suddenly brought into question after property sold next door

Post by rachel68 on Thu May 18, 2017 10:41 am

We bought a casale and casaletto with 6500m2 agricultural land around it to renovate in 2011. The people we bought from had purchased hectares of land and built themselves a brand new home behind our buildings some years before and then sold off some of this land. When we bought from them they organised and paid for the geomatra to do the new frazionamente which was marked out with metal poles. Their land almost surrounded ours on three sides. Fast forward 5 years and sadly this family had their house reposessed and sold at auction. We hoped to buy it ourselves but were encouraged not to right at the last minute by neighbours who had hitherto shown no interest in buying. They told us that they could bid very high and would outbid us at whatever cost but actually had no interest in acquiring more land as they already had much and were in their 60s. They proposed to us that we should not bid at the auction (which they were sure had no interested participants other than us) and that in return they would 'give' us all of the land to the front of our two properties. The land to the front was a preoccupation for us as there is lovely view which we are keen not to have ruined, having sunk our life's savings and borrowings into the project. They didn't want to put anything in writing but said we should trust them. Time has passed and they've now minimised or decided not to give us large portions of this land and of course there is nothing we can do about it. But what's really worried us is that they seem to feel they now own land in front of our properties which we have firmly believed to be ours since we purchased in 2011. They have told us they called in a geometra to measure the land and are clear that this is theirs. We really don't have financial resources to fight a legal battle over this. It's not a huge piece of land and only important in  that it is the main land we look out over from our terrace and if people grew huge trees on it or placed ugly things on it our enjoyment of being there would be considerably diminished. An English friend suggested we  continue to treat the land as ours and register a 'dispute' over the frazionamento (not quite sure how we do it) and leave it at that, so if their house is sold it'll have to be sorted out then. I think what might have happened is that the original geometra didn't draw up the land division accurately and because we and the people we bought from understood what belonged to each we didn't check the new map carefully enough: we didn't check it at all in fact, being new to Italian rural life and buying in Italy. The one thing I did do when the house was first put up for auction was to write to the lawyer who was appointed the 'custodian' of the repossessed house to  come over and show her what we believed to be our land and she said it was clear...but clearly she was wrong. If we had've realised this could come to a head I could have registered a case then that the map of the frazionamento was wrong and presumably it would have been the responsibility and cost of the new owners to put it right seeing as it was clearly the geometry of the previous owners who has drawn up the map erroneously. Any thoughts on what to do? I feel the custodian has some responsibility in this as I flagged this up as a concern and she reassured me all was fine. but now the house is sold at auction and completed I think any past problems are wiped away....and sadly some of our property with it it seems. Our beautiful dream is turning into a somewhat soured experience...!

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Re: Land confines suddenly brought into question after property sold next door

Post by Admin on Fri May 19, 2017 9:25 am

Well, I would say that actually you have no certain facts. You need to go to the Agenzia delle Entrate/Territorio (in some places they are the same place and in others not) and get a 'visura catastale' to show what you actually own and then also get a 'mappa catastale' to show those parcels of land on an actual map. You can also do this online but you must pay. I use Visure in Rete from time to time. They are very good. The best is to do a visura based on your Codice Fiscale (assuming yours is on ALL particelle). This is called 'Su Nominativo' on their website. Once you have this you can choose a particella in the middle of your plot and ask for the Mappa Catastale based on that particella.

The useful thing is that you can also check who owns the surrounding particelle. Once you have the Mappa, you can see who owns the particelle you are disputing.

If you can't determine where exactly the 'particelle' of land that you own are from the map, in relation to the actual land, you will need to get a geometra in and get him to define it. Geometras have access to a kind of Google maps system with the particelle overlaid so they can clearly see where the boundaries are.

I would start there. At least you will then know for sure who owns what. If there is a problem and you think you will have a dispute, you should go back to the notary in the first instance for some advice. The advice is usually free and he will be best placed to advise.
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Re: Land confines suddenly brought into question after property sold next door

Post by modicasa on Wed May 31, 2017 5:10 am

When you did the frazionamento the geometra had to provide paperwork to get it through, (above all if it was less than 5000 mq).  The catasto is no reliable guide, above all on the maps.  If it hasnt been done, you need to get a gemoetra, or the original geometra (if he wasnt taking the mick or working for your neighbours) , to doa  geo-pos of the confines - which will show exactly where they are, with no need for metal poles.  Do the new neighbours who have shown themselves to be lying little sh16s take any onotice of the metal poles?  
You will have to open a dispute as otherwise they will walk all over you.   Itis important that people know that you do not agree with them, and that will take a formal 'dispute'.  Get an geometra who is not from your village, who doesnt know the neighbours and will act in your interests.

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