Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

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Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:27 pm

We submitted an approved progetto to restore and extend a rustico to the Genio Civile and have completed the work except for the terrace. The architect suggested a terrace made of exposed steel beams on the underside but this leaves all our ugly plastic waste pipes exposed and wouldn't be in keeping with a rustic stone rural building. We have since been quoted for a traditional stone/cement walled + solaio type terrace typical of our village and have discovered it's cheaper and much lovelier aesthetically. Initially our architect had told us we couldn't afford this type of terrace!!! Grrr!!!! His initial suggestion was to push on with the project, submit the project as finished and then build the terrace we wanted quietly at a later date. We are completely in our own land and not looked onto by anyone at all. On the grounds we already have permission for a terrace he thought the likelihood of this being a problem was very small especially as I don't see us selling in the near future if at all. When we asked at the commune about changing the method of constructing the terrace the planner their said our architect should find someone reasonable at the genio civile and ask them to accept an amended plan. We are not sure whether this has actually been done or not but the architect is now strongly advising that if we submit for the project to be finished and the terrace isn't done we'll get a cross in the box and it won't be approved. We are supposed to have our certificato abitazione to start paying IMU, rubbish collection tax etc and I'm very confused by the whole process now. Is the stamp of approval from the genio civile connected to the certificato abitazione or are the two things unrelated? Thanks

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by modicasa on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:10 am

Everything is connected.  You have a project which you have to see as being a single thing - therefore if a bit of it isnt done, then the project as a whole isnt either.  Its better to get a variation on the original project and do the terrace, than sign off on the project and then do the terrace later as ) it will cost you alot more and b) they may say no given that you have already had a terrace (even though you haven't - but on the project you have).  Get a variante done asap - that will keep the IG happy.  Until you have your agibilià you are in 'corso di costruzione' presumably, so dont have IMU etc to pay - you should be happy about that!  but don't do as the locals do and remain in corso di costruzione for the next 50 years.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:01 am

Thanks Modicasa,
The problem we find ourselves in is not being too sure how best to approach the IG not least because our rchitect claims (but not sure this is the case) if we put in for the same terrace with a different construction method we have to send a totally new application and fee, a new geological survey etc...have paid many mouthwatering €1000's in fees we are worried about this. Also it seemed really strange to us that we should need a new geological survey when naturally nothing has changed in the lie of the land or soil structure. Maybe i should head off down to the IG myself and approach them as a real person with kids in tow. It could be that our architect hasn't really asked them about simply changing the terrace in the 'right' way or not at all? Is going in to see them a good idea or will it alert them to the fact we should start all over again with all those fees to pay again...in which case our project will slide to a halt ...like so many of those around us!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by modicasa on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:17 am

a variante doesnt require starting from scratch unless it is huge.  It may be that your terrace with iron as opposed to the preferred idea will incur a huge difference in weight, stress, etc - in which case you might need new calculations.  However, basically I suspect your architect is creaming off the top a bit.  You do need to pay for a variante, but not the whole amount.  It depends on whether you have other 'interessati' such as the forestale or the Beni Culturali.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:30 am

NO...no other 'interessati' at all. If we were switching to a simple foundation and wall and solaio system as are ALL other terraces in the village would we simply go to any geometra or strutturalista to do new calculations? Thank you so much Wink .

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:38 am

Modicasa wrote: ...but don't do as the locals do and remain in corso di costruzione for the next 50 years

Why, is there a problem doing this? Just curiosity, we have no project.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by modicasa on Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:48 am

because you can't legally live in a house that isnt finished and agibile.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:42 am

The plot thickens...I've had certified residenza at this address since March! Admittedly it isn't completely finished but certainly habitable with connected electricity with Enel, bathrooms in, decorated...it's just building a terrace, teething issues and external tidying up around the house which is now required. Maybe we've got away with it because our address is so vague...it simply mentions the Localita. I think I need to get down to the commune as soon as I'm back...why do these issues always arise when I'm least able to deal with them. Arghhh!!!!! This really shows the value of a forum...we just aren't getting this information from our architect who's supposed to be managing the project in its entirety!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by DarcyDog on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:12 am

Isnìt the genio civile for public building works? Why would that be relevant to your project?

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by modicasa on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:23 am

residence and agibilita are two very different things.   
The Igiene Civile is responsible for all sorts of stuff, swimming pools, sewage, drains - all sorts - anything that 'insists' on land.  
Rachel is your terrace ' suspended' or at ground level?

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:32 am

The terrace was partially at ground level...before the architect/ builder in all their wisdom instructed a guy with a digger who happened to be around doing some other stuff to take away more of the soil which was right up against the building. We're on a slope but you can clearly see where the soil has been cut away so the area was partially at ground level once! The design the architect has come up with puts the terrace on steel 'stilts' - local builders say "why don't you just build retaining walls and back fill with soil and rubble to lessen the likelihood of 'trouble' from the planners?". Another builder said just build a traditional stone/cement wall and don't backfill now the soil has been removed as this will add further pressure on the wall in the future.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by The Original Relaxed on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:23 am

DarcyDog wrote:Isnìt the genio civile for public building works? Why would that be relevant to your project?


 
I'd never heard of the Genio Civile, so I looked it up, and I agree with you that it's highly unlikely to enter into the terrace project. I've never heard of the Igiene Civile either - though such a body sounds as if it has a semi-plausible reason to be interested.

My guess would be that the now proposed terrace, using a different structural system from the one initially approved, will need a full new set of structural calculations, (and quite feasibly a brand new application). These calcs can be done by a suitably qualified engineer (often engineer/geometra) but they will run into thousands whoever is used.

Couldn't you just sling a suspended ceiling (made with timber vergole and pianelli if you want) under the steelwork thus hiding the pipework and giving you something pretty to look at? Though I've just read a few more posts carefully, and it sounds as if you'd only see these pipes from a crawl space if the terrace is close to ground level, so what would be the point?  A bit of trellis and a climbing plant would screen the under terrace view and leave the pipes accessible for when they leak! can't see any reason why the columns couldn't be brick clad as well. Tell the architect to make it pretty, but not to be an engineer Smile
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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by modicasa on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:41 am

Sorry igiene civile is my brain wandering while typing - Genio Civile - is responsbile for all these things plus all the geology for anti seismic stuff.....

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:00 pm

Yes 'Original relaxed' - we could try and clad the structure to disguise it but at the moment having the stone structure we first wanted is coming in about €1500 cheaper anyway. I think it might look very odd to have 10 steel beams quite close together and clad in bricks! I had wondered about giving the architect the go ahead and then trying to plant laurels or something dense and fast growing all around to see if it will hide all the metal and pipes on the underside of the structure. Our architect has really messed up on the pricing of all this, having first said it would cost more to have a stone wall. It's just if we have to start again with fees - we could be looking at €4000 just to ask to change construction method and re-do the geological survey and get calcs done and pay for a new project.....arghhh!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by ourtoscana on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:43 am

The genio civile can be translated as the Office of Civil Engineering. They deal with both public and private projects. Any structural alteration comes under their scrutiny and there are different levels of controls depending on the earthquake zone you house is located in.

The problem highlighted above is very common. That's to say, the original design submitted gets altered or improved (we are all human beings and strive for the best!). Small jobs tend to create a huge dilemma where the costs or soil investigations + structural analysis & design are astronomical with respect to the simple works carried out.

At the end of the job, the director of works has to formally sign off on the paperwork stating that everything has been constructed in compliance with the design. This is then subject to spot controls somewhere in the region of 5% of the total population.

The habitability certification/declaration is sort of umbrella declaration issued by the director of works that contains the following documentation as backup:

- updated land and building registry entries (catasto)
- heat dispersion and heating design
- genio civile and compliance certification
- waste water authorization (if required)
- acoustical design and compliance (if required)
- electrical and heating compliance certification
- linea vita for roof maintenance

Hope this helps to clarify!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:13 am

Thanks very much. Do you happen to know how much it costs to request a 'variante' from the GC? Our architect says everything is now online so there's noone to talk to. He also said changing from a terrace on rsj supports to a walled structure would mean completely reapplying. We had a geological survey done which i thought would be reusable but he says not. We are weighing up having a stone walled terrace costing 12k with the original one costing about 16k but would have to weigh up costs of resubmitting for the stone wall structure. I had thought it would just be a matter of adding some calcs for foundations etc but architect says not. He seems ridiculously unwilling to help us change but we can't work out why he's so opposed.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by ourtoscana on Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:38 am

It sound like you architect is correct as there is a significant difference between the rsj solution and wall on a foundation. In fact, the latter could change the structural behavour of the entire building and a seismic joint ought to be considered to avoid unwanted surprises. I would expect  to pay 1400euro+ but every project tends to be unique.

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:01 am

May I just ask one further bit of advice. Orignally we had far more soil at ground level right up to the house which easily could have formed a terrace with a retaining wall keeping things neat znd providing a safe raised edge. One local builder just said get the project signed off and say the terrace isn't now going to be done and then simply put back the soil and build a new retaining wall thus creating a terrace. Is this suggestion outrageous? We are completely isolated so noone would have cause to complain or even notice!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

Post by rachel68 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:03 am

May I just ask one further bit of advice? Originally we had far more soil at ground level right up to the house which easily could have formed a terrace with a retaining wall keeping things neat and providing a safe raised edge. One local builder just said get the project signed off and say the terrace isn't now going to be done and then simply put back the soil and build a new retaining wall thus creating a terrace. Is this suggestion outrageous? We are completely isolated so noone would have cause to complain or even notice!

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Re: Certificato abitazione etc...changing an aspect of a progetto with the genio civile

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