ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

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ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:23 pm

For all those interested in acquiring Italian Citizenship, here are the major guidelines:
http://www.esteri.it/MAE/EN/Italiani_nel_Mondo/ServiziConsolari/Cittadinanza.htm
And in English!!!!
Something very important to keep in mind. If you are looking at acquiring Italian Citizenship through ancestry, keep in mind that if your grandfather was born around the 1860's, you may not be able to get a Birth Certificate, as the Civil Registry started around that date. You may be able to replace the Birth Certificate with a Baptism Certificate, which is not an easy task, as you will possibly have to go through the Parish books. Many times, as the entries are in Latin, quite a few mistakes have been made when trying to compile indexes. I know it from experience, trying to find the baptism certificate for my husband's grandfather... We finally managed, but it was quite an ordeal. But that's another story to be told.....
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Flip on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:02 pm

Thanks for that Gala, but when I look at all the paperwork that I would have to find (and get a Bollo for), I think although I'm married to an Italian, I will forgo the Privilege of Italian Citizenship. Wink
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:15 pm

Yes, the amount of paperwork required is daunting! And it is not only the certificates that you have to obtain. Once you have them, you need the Apostille and a certified translation as well. One day, I am going to write a thread about my husband's experience... And if you already have your EU passport there is no benefit in obtaining citizenship through marriage. It would be an exercise in futility... and an expensive one.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Lisa C. on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:26 am

It took me about 4 years to get our family citizenship through my husband's grandfather, who was actually born in the US of Italian parents who had not naturalized.  Part of the reason it was that long was not being told accurate information at the outset such as needing the long form of some documents, thus I had to go back and get that version for birth and death certificates.  We also had to get documentation from Italy that my husband's family had never renounced their citizenship (the family went back and forth from Italy, to the US, back to Italy and then finally remaining in the US).  It was incredibly frustrating at the time but ultimately well worth it and immensely satisfying in the end.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by lancashire lass on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:24 pm

If you married an Italian before 1983 you automatically get Italian citizenship, you do have to make an application to get it confirmed but it is a simple process.

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:52 pm

lancashire lass wrote:If you married an Italian before 1983 you automatically get Italian citizenship, you do have to make an application to get it confirmed but it is a simple process.Lancashire Lass

 Are you sure about that? The law allowed automatic citizenship to any women who married an Italian man before 1983, but I understand that it has been superseded.
This is a good summarythrough the maze of laws applying to citizenship
Italian Nationality Laws
And sorry, but I do not think that there is such a thing as "a simple process" in Italy:P
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by lancashire lass on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:06 pm

I went to the Italian consulate with a legalised birth certificate. marriage certificate and my "british passport" filled in a form and waited a few months. as soon as I was registered in the anagrafe in Bagni di lucca I applied for my Italian passport. that was in 2009, it's possible it's changed since!
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:14 pm

You got your citizenship through Law 123/1983, which granted citizenship to the wives of Italian citizens married before 1983. They keep on asking for more documents. Originally, you only had to prove the "lineage" for "jus sanguinis", meaning that your grandfather had the Italian nationality and did not relinquish it before the birth of your father (they added mothers after 1983) and that neither your ancestors, nor yourself, relinquished the Italian citizenship (later on, they accepted dual nationality). At a later stage, they started asking for birth, marriage and death certificates for every member of the lineage and the fact that your birth certificate clearly stated that you were the "legitimate" child of both your parents started to have no meaning. They decided to ask for your parens and grandparents marriage certificate. Finally, they added a further certificate stating that your grandfather did not relinquish his Italian citizenship, even if his death certificate clearly stated that he was an Italian citizen at the time of his death...It looks as if death is not final according to the Italian authorities. 
All this has happened to my husband , even after the Anagrafe had accepted all the documents originally filed as sufficient to prove that the "lineage" had not been broken. Sad
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Flip on Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:15 pm

I think as with most dealing with 'Authority' in Italy, it is who you see/ask and how helpful that person is feeling that day. We know cases of exactly the same scenarios getting different answers from the Comune as to what documentation or circumstances apply. Whatever the Law says/requires does not always meet with what the sweethearts in the Comune deem acceptable.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:17 pm

In our particular case, it was not the Comune - who were quite happy with all the documents - but the Questura who asked for more documents... The incredible thing is that they had already seen the documents and said that they were fine. Two months later... surprise, surprise!!! Another lot of documents - totally unnecessary - to be obtained, apostlled, officially translated and a further 1000€, as we can't get them ourselves. The most annoying thing is that the 1864 Baptism certificate, which took an enormous effort (and money) to find is now in the Questura file and a new document has to be obtained in order to get the certificate stating that the old nonno was born and died as an Italian citizen!!! My husband is very keen about finally obtaining his citizenship. It is a sentimental thing...
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Miss Demeanor on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:12 pm

It's a rash - and I have a terrible urge to scratch.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:14 am

Seeing that my local questura don't know the answer to my question,  Im asking on here as someone with experience can, Im sure, tell me the definitive answer: 
here goes ....  The translation of the documentation required for citizenship must be a) a simple translation and autodichiarato  b) 'giurata' ie sworn in front of a  Justice of the peace or c) done by an accredited translator with all the bells and whistles.

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:51 am

Good question! I'd like to know too. I'd also like to know what happens when you can't prove income above €8,232 a year for 3 years because you are on a special regime where you only pay tax on the cadastral value of your farm and not your sales?
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Italian citizenship

Post by casa del campanile on Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:31 am

modicasa wrote:Seeing that my local questura don't know the answer to my question,  Im asking on here as someone with experience can, Im sure, tell me the definitive answer: here goes ....  The translation of the documentation required for citizenship must be a) a simple translation and autodichiarato  b) 'giurata' ie sworn in front of a  Justice of the peace or c) done by an accredited translator with all the bells and whistles.

Going through the process via the Italian consulate in Los Angeles, was given a list of approved translators from which to select one to provide the necessary translations so would say c) is correct, at least in LA.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:49 am

From recent experience with my husband's citizenship process, the foreign documents had to be apostilled, officially translated and certified by the Italian Consulate in the country issuing them. The whole process took long and it was fairly expensive. Plus he ended up with documents about 1 inch thick. My advice would be to have a look at the citizenship requirements issued by the Italian consulate in the country of origin of the person, even if the application is made in Italy. And good luck, it takes time....
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:54 pm

Further to my previous post, here is what La Farnesina says http://www.esteri.it/mae/it/italiani_nel_mondo/serviziconsolari/traduzionelegalizzazionedocumenti.html
Basically, the foreign document has to be apostilled, translated and legalized by the relevant Italian Consulate. As I indicated, the final result is a huge file, but that's what bureaucrats love Very Happy
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:11 am

Thanks Gaia - I am still confused - . your link says the documents must be legalised and then translated 'conforme'.    Now, the documents are all legalised byt the relevant authorities, and a conforme translation doesnt necessarily have to be done by a consulate.   Obviously i cant translate my own, even though I am in the appropriate albo,  but nowhere does it say what constitutes a traduzione conforme - in their opinion? giurata or 'professional' - if it only has to be stamped 'conforme' it could be done by the bloke in the bar.... boh?

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:56 am

Yes, Modi, I do understand your frustration and a foreign document, duly apostilled or legalized could, in theory, be translated by a certified translator who would add a statement indicating personal data and accreditation and that would suffice... But not in Italy. Years ago they introduced this concept of the foreign documents having to be seen and certified by the Italian consulate in the country of origin and they do not give other options. Here is what the notaries have to say, see paragraph 2 http://elibrary.fondazionenotariato.it/approfondimento.asp?app=07/studicnn/234-1988&mn=3&tipo=3&qn=27
Yes, you are right, even if you are an official translator, you cannot certify your own documents or those which belong to members of your family.
You may still try to get a full translation from a certified translator, which will include all legalizations and apostilled, finishing with a statutory declaration about the accuracy of the translation, even signed by a notari... But nobody can guarantee that this will work. In my opinion, the Italian authorities are not only worried about the translation itself, but also the authenticity of the document and this is why they want their own consulate in the country of origin to certify everything. In your case, I would contact the Consulate and check whether they could help or tell you what to do. In some countries, the Italian Consulates have their own team of translators and do the lot. Yes, it costs money, but then...
Good luck! Very Happy
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:58 am

More on this matter http://www.ristretti.it/areestudio/stranieri/politiche/paggi.htm
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:00 am

Thanks Gaia - food for thought.

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:23 am

Spent my holiday morning at the questura and Prefettura - and they say definitively that: if you are an EU citizen you can have your documents translated by an official translator in Italy and then have them 'giurate' at the justice of the Peace.  There is no need to have them done at a consulate or embassy.   If your country of nationality issues docs - eg birth certificates in multilingual form then there is no need to have them translated, only legalised.

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:39 am

Thanks Modi that is very helpful. Better get on with it while we're still in the EU!
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:36 am

What about the Apostille (which is basically the legalization process)? Look at what the Italian consulate in London says http://www.conslondra.esteri.it/NR/exeres/01BC43D2-0A93-42F1-A095-96E3AD3B4C75,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published
In any case, try what they told you, but I will not be surprised if they come back at a later stage and say that the procedure is different..... Good luck!
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:22 pm

Further to my previous post, here are the instructions regarding ALL documents issued by a foreign authority and it does not differentiate between EU and Non EU countries. They all have to be legalized by the relevant Italian Consulate, including Apostilles and translations. http://www.esteri.it/mae/it/italiani_nel_mondo/serviziconsolari/traduzionelegalizzazionedocumenti.html
Yes, I also think it is ridiculous and bureaucratic, but they are the ones who make the rules.
Modi, if you manage to get through the document the way the Questura and Prefettura indicated, please let everyone know.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:27 pm

But as we live in Italy we don't have an Italian consulate in Italy (obviously) so I can see the logic in what Modi was told. Obviously if you are applying from outside Italy then I can see the logic of the consulate as a person can't go to the Justice of the Peace in Italy. Most information on the internet is either for non-EU citizens or people applying from abroad. It's really hard to find anything specific to our circumstances online.  I guess we shall have to wait and see.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

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