BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

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BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Sagraiasolar on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:12 pm

After some useful shoves in the right direction from Panner a useful Excel model has emerged for viewing the benefits of using the BTA3 heat pump rates.  For newcomers to the debate: Say you have a heat pump for your heating and hot water connected up to the regular D3 Enel supply. The result will be a lot of consumption in the more expensive bands so your average cost of power will be high
The BTA3 supply is done via a separate additional meter to the heat pump. Although the fixed costs are a bit higher it soon makes up for that with a cheaper running rate. In addition the removal of the heat pump from the D3 bill removes a lot of the high charge element and lowers the average cost considerably. No two examples will be the same but if you had a small heat pump consuming 6000kW.hrs plus another 7,000 of domestic use then the new BTA3 regime would reduce the total bill by around €420 and about €700 for a bigger house using the rule of thumb 25,000 kW.hrs for big house heating.
These figures don't say much for comparisons but gas costs around 2.5 times more ... the age of the gas boiler is over.
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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Sagraiasolar wrote:.... would reduce the total bill by around €420 and about €700 for a bigger house using the rule of thumb 25,000 kW.hrs for big house heating.These figures don't say much for comparisons but gas costs around 2.5 times more ... the age of the gas boiler is over.
"Reduce by"! What bills are we talking about here and what size house, sounds like a lot of money... Or are the amounts of savings in relation to gas prices? Very Happy

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by ghiro on Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:18 pm

Sagraiasolar wrote: ... the age of the gas boiler is over.
But if I get rid of my gas boiler then what will the mice have to eat?! Smile
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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:37 pm

Thanks to Sagraiasolar and Panner, there are some excellent excel spreadsheets for the savings.

Steve, the ones that have been highlighted here, if the above do not mind me saying, are comparisons against the 2 meter electricity tarriff costs. GPL has not been included, nor has mains gas. With mains gas the it is a close call. Savings against having a GPL system are higher.

House size is a factor as the size of the heat pump is proportional. Here we use circa 10000 Kwh per year, with approx 4000 Kwh going to the pump. Heated area 120 m2, underfloor. 19 - 20C recommended setting, as the floor area acts as a better radiator system.


Last edited by Geotherm on Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:22 pm

Thanks folk, I would hate to impact such detailed and valuable information. It's just these figures seem so high to me. We heat (another subjective/variable bit) 130 m2, have another 130 m2 downstairs unheated apart from the sansa stuffa heating it's 4x4 room, old wooden single glazed windows with aluminium outside shutters in the heated area. Must say I'm surprised at how well the rooms keep their heat as I assume no insulation. It was extended 1969 and who knows how old the original part is... I mention the variable above about "heat" as I think (and the only real input I can give to this detail) people reading this post way down the line will be those looking to buy here or having bought put in new heating. Strange enough in the UK we lived in 17-18c quite happily , hated heat in the bed rooms and still do. But here we find anything below 22c feels cold, yes we are getting older, but we've been back to the UK in winter and feel quite happy at 19-20c these days... All the costs. insulation aside, must be relative to how you like to live? We know of two Americans here who have been spotted at -5c in tee shits and  shorts and wonder why their GPL costs are high....

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:47 pm

ghiro wrote:
Sagraiasolar wrote: ... the age of the gas boiler is over.
But if I get rid of my gas boiler then what will the mice have to eat?! Smile
The cables to the heat pump ........ electric shock ........ mice gone Smile Smile Smile

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:57 pm

Steve. You have to consider all the costs of the energy that you are using. So electricity, the sansa boiler, gpl if you have it, etc. I would presume you may use GPL for domestic hot water, or a electric immersion heater in the summer.
Add up everything, that you use and the cost of the same and see what you end up with as the total. You are similar size to us. but if I put every light on in the house, I would use 3Kwh!!!
If you are on the lower 3kw tarriff with the electricity, then you are already saving.

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Thanks Geo...

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:21 pm

Geotherm wrote:Steve. You have to consider all the costs of the energy that you are using. So electricity, the sansa boiler, gpl if you have it, etc. I would presume you may use GPL for domestic hot water, or a electric immersion heater in the summer.Add up everything, that you use and the cost of the same and see what you end up with as the total. You are similar size to us. but if I put every light on in the house, I would use 3Kwh!!!If you are on the lower 3kw tarriff with the electricity, then you are already saving.
Thanks Geo, we use GPL for the hob only, probably < 50 per year, Sansa for DHW even in summer (would be better if we had solar or other, but installation cost etc, we will be dead) , electric about €150 per year, yes 3kw supply. Hard to work out as yet what we use per year for wood and sansa as we've not done the same in the 3 years we've been here, but would guess at €500-600 per year. We do have bits of wood from the land, but that's a very small %. But as I was trying to point out, we live a lot differently to many we know in as much as the rooms we heat and to what degree....

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reply to Steve

Post by Sagraiasolar on Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:29 am

You asked about how big the bills must be to save examples of €420 or €700.  Although many of us live very cheaply there are many who come out here and get a gas boiler put in by their plumber/architect/geometra... typical bills for these guys are €6,000 - I see a few. It is not uncommon to see total energy bills of €10,000.
So the solutions are generally to turn to wood, solar and heat pumps. The €420 saving example comes from a domestic consumption of 7,000kW.hrs + heat pump consumption of 6,000kW.hrs (delivering 18,000kW.hrs of heat) (total cost €3,812) being switched over to the heat pump meter and remainder still on Enel D3 (reduces to €3,392).  This and other models enable us to quite accurately predict the outcome of various heating strategies but I have to say this one has been surprising in the way that top slicing of the D3 bill makes such a difference. This represents the total energy bill for a fairly big and cosy house.  I always like to add wood to the plot and then the bills take another big step down.
The underlying message from all of this is that when installing a heat pump always run a conduit for the option of a separate feed from a BTA3 meter.
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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:48 am

Those are eye watering amounts Sagraiasolar! I would have to say we were indeed lucky that this place already had the sansa boiler (old as it is) when we bought it. Like I said, it's difficult for us to work out our total costs as we've never had the same situation year on year. We spent 2 month back in the UK last winter, but were here all the winter before which was very bad. But again, as I said, it depends on how you like to live and what your comfort zone is, additionally with wood and pellets, somewhere to store and the ability (will) to lug it!

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:38 pm

stevegwmonkseaton wrote:Those are eye watering amounts Sagraiasolar! I would have to say we were indeed lucky that this place already had the sansa boiler (old as it is) when we bought it. Like I said, it's difficult for us to work out our total costs as we've never had the same situation year on year. We spent 2 month back in the UK last winter, but were here all the winter before which was very bad. But again, as I said, it depends on how you like to live and what your comfort zone is, additionally with wood and pellets, somewhere to store and the ability (will) to lug it!
Please remember Steve, that these are forecasts for fairly large houses @ 13000 kwh of electrical energy usage a year, with no other heating source. If you are not open plan as we are here, then heating costs will be lower, as all areas are heated here. You are about 10 m2 more than us on the living area.
Thanks for putting the info up on your situation, as it all helps.

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:57 pm

Geo, I just love all the valuable information you experts put on here and I'm sure many, many others have benefited from it. You are correct in assuming this place is not knocked through. Most rooms are 4x5m and we have 21m2 in that total which is conservatory and not heated. As you can see I just don't have the attention to detail you guys have....

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Panner on Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:07 pm

To put the BTA3 tariff into perspective I have done a comparison on energy costs for heating and general electric consumption:
 
Assumptions are:
 
Modern condensing gas boiler
ASHP with an average COP over the period of 3.5
Electric/gas at ENEL rates (gas rate for Abruzzo/Puglia region)
GPL cost of 88cents/litre
Mains gas cost 74.8cents/M3
Annual consumption:
Heating 18,000 KWh
Hot water 2,500 KWh
General elec 6,000KWh
 
Cost (Total gas+electric) (actual electric costs would vary a little according to pattern of useage)
GPL  heating  E4,352
Mains gas E3,142
ASHP (D3 tariff only)  E3,641
ASHP (D3 + BTA3)  E3,279
 
If you can get mains gas then that is cheapest, if not ASHP on BTA3 tariff is cheaper. Looking at a new installation the other choices to take into account are wood burner and/or pellet burner for heating (I do not have any details of the running costs of these for comparison but they do involve extra work/storage), GSHP (a relatively fixed COP compared to an ASHP and could be cheaper to run but more consistent in winter and likely to be more expensive to install) and solar for hot water (negligible cost to run but additional up-front costs) and solar electric – which can have a significant impact. A 3KW installation would cut the electric costs in this comparison by up to E1,250 (all electric D3 tariff) or around E950 in the other cases (plus any tax relief on the cost) based on the new net metering arrangements.

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Bangs for your €1,000 bucks

Post by Sagraiasolar on Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:47 am

Nice one Panner.  That prompted me to re-draw my kW.hrs for €1,000 chart. I've attempted to attach it but it exceeded the attachment size of 0 kbyte!. If anyone can help fill in the town gas and oil bars which are missing it would be great - then I might lodge it in pictures or something.  What stands out since it was constructed some 5 years ago is how much the cost of electricity has risen. Wood however has remained static with €1,000 covering the heating and hot water bill for most houses. In conclusion: Wood plus solar is the cheapest you can get but it's all a bit of a chore. What is really starting to dawn on me is that with the cost of electricity being so high there is a better return coming from solar PV panels as they will defray a cost of around €0.33/kW.hr  As it's better to keep the energy on site rather than export it, a small load like a heat pump is useful (with big tanks like 2,000 litres to smooth and store) and then a scaled up UPS system (i.e. a few batteries) would be very handy... so we go almost off grid but keep Enel as a back up. this http://powerrouter.com/ will explain the vibe.
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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Sagraiasolar on Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:56 am

the chart is now in my personal gallery ... but I'm not sure how you would get there.
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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:39 am

Like the example figures Panner, just need to find out how to calculate our Kwh usage now!

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Panner on Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:24 pm

Therein lies the difficulty. 

Excluding heating it is a matter of looking at usage (last few bills if you have them or estimating based on expected usage if forecasting)

Heating can be calculated if the type of building materials are known and their thermal efficiency estimated. Then it is a matter of measuring the outside areas - walls, roof, floor, windows and with walls/windows which way they are facing. After that it is a matter of what temperature you want the inside (can be done on a room by room basis if only certain rooms are used in the winter) and the outside temperature at various times throughout the heating season. With all that you can calculate the heat requirements. This can vary from rough and ready calculations to quite detailed ones using info on average temperatures at different times of the day.

Alternatively look at recent bills and guesstimate the split between heating/cooling

Finally, if happy with current heating levels and costs forget it and have a glass or 2 of wine whilst feeling sorry for those who are not in that fortunate position.

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:08 pm

Thanks Panner, I'll go back to the tree pruning now, which has to be done and adds to next years (or after) heating/cooking... After that I'll have those 1 or 2 glasses of vino....

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Panner on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:47 pm

Sounds like a good plan

Have fun  Cool

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:20 pm

The new Electricity tariff for a heat pump, plus all your house.

This is a new idea for users of heat pumps, that also includes the usage for the house. It is experimental at the moment with Enel, but available, so worth looking into if you can save money with it.
The link is from Enel for comparison rates, but if you use 7500kwh over a year, then you save E500.

http://www.enel.it/it-IT/doc/clienti/enel_servizio_elettrico/convenienzad1.pdf

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:53 pm

Update on the new D1 tariff.
The rates appear very good. If you are on D3, then the servizi di vendita is exactly the same.
With the service di rete, the quota fissa increases to 48.5 euro per year, as against 20.7 Euro.
Per Kw supply cost is the same @ 15.8 per year.
Then you get to the good part. The energy cost is basically 9 cents per kwh however much you use.

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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Panner on Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Geotherm

When I worked it out earlier this week the per KWH unit cost was 19.6c for the F1 timeslot and 18.8c for F2/3 per the ENEL figures (incl IVA). A saving of about 12.5c per KWH at the highest rate.

With a heat pump operating at a COP of 4 it means a KWH of heat is costing around 5c. With higher COPs (which the latest heat pumps can achieve) the cost is even less. Compares well even compared to the price of mains gas in the UK!



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Re: BTA3 heat pump tariff is good

Post by Geotherm on Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:25 pm

It does look a good deal, especially if you are on a single meter, as the house supply for normal domestic use is at the same rates.
D1 only applies to GSHP and Air/Water heat pumps and is for residents only.
We use circa 8000-8500kwh per year, so I am looking at saving over 500 Euro.

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