Help for Migrants.
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Gala Placidia
Casa Monal
Flip
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Help for Migrants.
After the tragedy off the coast of Lampedusa, it's good to see how some communities help Migrants to settle into a normal life after fleeing their often horrific past lives..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/italian-village-migrants-sea
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/italian-village-migrants-sea
Flip- Elder
- Location : nr. Bagni Di Lucca. LU
Posts : 809
Join date : 2013-05-25
Re: Help for Migrants.
That’s great news. Anyone who is willing to risk their lives for a better future should be offered all the help that’s available. This is not just an issue for Italy to deal with either; the whole EU should be involved.
Casa Monal- Elder
- Posts : 183
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Re: Help for Migrants.
It looks as if the Lampedusa tragedies will result in some positive moves. Letta has promised some law reforms as right now it is against the Italian law for fishermen to rescue people who are drowning... Three boats did not come to help in the latest incident because of this. Fortunately, some people disregard these absurd laws, although it would be preferable to change them.
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
The italians have some of the strangest laws I've ever come across. For example, I remember reading that the police can fine anyone (including tourists) who buy "cloned" designer knock-offs from street traders. I couldn't find anything to say that the sellers of such products were also fined, or that they had any method of licensing street traders. The assumption is that everyone knows that these products are designer clones. But I am a determined avoider of fashion, and with the possible exception of a Gucci bag (which at one point at least was covered in Gs), I wouldn't have a clue whether a handbag was meant to resemble a designer brand or not, so I think this law is very unfair.
Carciofo- Elder
- Posts : 143
Join date : 2013-06-03
Re: Help for Migrants.
Well, I would disagree there... Nobody can buy a Gucci, or a Prada handbag for 50€ or less. If you buy it, you know that it is a fake.
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
So here's the scenario I am imagining: I see a guy selling handbags on the street, they are all in leather, some I like, some I don't like but I see one that I particularly like so I buy it. At what point do I think I'm buying Prada?
Carciofo- Elder
- Posts : 143
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Good Prada fakes can be easily identified by people who buy them at their shops. To say that you didn't know, is a very poor excuse...
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Carciofo, If the guy selling it has the handbags on a sheet on the pavement, and it has a Prada, Louis Vitton, Channel or any other 'label' on it then it's fake. The Guarda di Financia are trying to stop copyright infringements and forged goods, and by buying from them (rather than a licensed shop) you are aiding and abetting a person committing fraud. Who would sell a genuine 'designer' bag for €20.
Don't worry they will also get fined or imprisoned, that is why they have the bags on a sheet, so they can gather it up quickly and make off.
Don't worry they will also get fined or imprisoned, that is why they have the bags on a sheet, so they can gather it up quickly and make off.
Flip- Elder
- Location : nr. Bagni Di Lucca. LU
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Re: Help for Migrants.
I enjoy going to the Forte dei Marmi markets (held every Wednesday morning throughout the year and also on Sundays from June to October) as they have some excellent designer bargains (all genuine). On the other hand, there are also guys trying to sell fake goods as described by Flip. I never buy from them and I have seen the Guardia de Finanza and local Police stopping not only them, but also people who have purchased items from them, asking for the "scontrino", which cannot be produced as they do not give you one. Big trouble! Also, I have seen other people in expensive cars "feeding" merchandise to these people, who are victims of organized crime. Counterfeit, fraud, maffias... who wants to buy from them?
On the other hand you can buy authentic goods from legitimate stallholders and still find some great bargains. Yes, they are generally "ends of line", but who cares? Good design is timeless and you are buying at bargain prices.
Buying from these unfortunate migrants does not help them to get a better life. They are exploited by others.
On the other hand you can buy authentic goods from legitimate stallholders and still find some great bargains. Yes, they are generally "ends of line", but who cares? Good design is timeless and you are buying at bargain prices.
Buying from these unfortunate migrants does not help them to get a better life. They are exploited by others.
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
This is a very difficult one for me, If we don't give them anything, they are then left stranded, not sure where they go from there ?
V
V
Vicino- Elder
- Posts : 534
Join date : 2013-05-25
Re: Help for Migrants.
And do you think that buying counterfeits will really help them? The money does not go to them but to those who exploit them and make them live under miserable conditions. This is not "employment" but modern times slavery. The solution is not easy, as employing illegal migrants is against Italian law. The only ones who really help them are organizations such as Caritas that try to regularize their migrant status, find them jobs, feed, give shelter and clothes and look after their dignity as human beings. And organizations such as Caritas is mainly run by volunteers. The money goes to those who really need the help.
PS This will help to understand what Caritas does, not only for migrants, but also for Italians in need Caritas Rome
PS This will help to understand what Caritas does, not only for migrants, but also for Italians in need Caritas Rome
Last edited by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add PS)
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
I have sympathy with the views expressed above by our resident Artichoke. It would appear that, like me, she is not a dedicated follower of fashion and therefore wouldn't know what any designer handbag looks like.
With this is mind she would not be knowingly buying a 'fake' - all she is doing is buying a handbag she likes at a good price. So, in those circumstances, it would indeed be unfair for the Italian authorities to fine her.
However I fully take the point that buying handbags (or other items) in this way only benefits the crime bosses and not the migrant seller.
With this is mind she would not be knowingly buying a 'fake' - all she is doing is buying a handbag she likes at a good price. So, in those circumstances, it would indeed be unfair for the Italian authorities to fine her.
However I fully take the point that buying handbags (or other items) in this way only benefits the crime bosses and not the migrant seller.
ghiro- Moderator
- Location : Massa-Carrara
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Join date : 2013-05-24
Re: Help for Migrants.
I can understand that sometimes it may not be easy to identify a genuine item from a fake; however, this is not going to be accepted as an excuse by the Italian authorities as it is against the law. Furthermore, try to convince the Police that you did not know, when you are buying from a person who does not have a shop, or even a stall, and has not given you a "scontrino" as proof of purchase. Both Italy and France have very strict laws and a "bargain" may prove to be very expensive Counterfeits
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Well here's a very good example of how unlikely I am to know whether something is a genuine brand or not. I read your post and thought to myself "gosh someone called Artichoke must have recently joined the forum"ghiro wrote:I have sympathy with the views expressed above by our resident Artichoke.
If you look at the way the production and distribution of designer brands is dealt with in the UK, you can see that is done very differently. Anyone who sells a product under a false brand name is guilty of Passing Off. This would apply to the seller of any type, whether a store or a street trader. Further, there is copyright and design right infringement which is aimed at dishonest manufacturers and distributors, not buyers. The UK systems looks at where the money is and goes after the guilty parties with the deepest pockets. There is a reasonable cost benefit analysis attached to the detection of crime and the manpower and time required in scrutinising purchases by individuals just doesn't make a lot of financial sense to my way of thinking plus it is likely to hurt tourists who provide significant funds to the Italian economy.
Carciofo- Elder
- Posts : 143
Join date : 2013-06-03
Re: Help for Migrants.
Sorry, but you seem to disregard two important points:
1.- Each country is free to have its own laws. What Italy does, it's their own decision. Actually, we could also say that France follows the same line of thinking and both countries have a very important industry to defend: the luxury goods, which are very important for their respective economies.
2.- How are you going to prosecute street sellers - generally illegal immigrants - who are not going to be able to pay fines, et. The real culprits are very difficult to trace, although Customs Police have been able to dismantle some organizations. Fining buyers will discourage purchases and sorry again, this type of commercial activity does nothing to help the Italian economy or the poor migrants, victims of organized crime. And I should add that I doubt very much that tourists come to Italy exclusively to buy fake Prada bags...
And tourists are not the only buyers, most of them are Italians.
This is an interesting link Counterfeit Industry
1.- Each country is free to have its own laws. What Italy does, it's their own decision. Actually, we could also say that France follows the same line of thinking and both countries have a very important industry to defend: the luxury goods, which are very important for their respective economies.
2.- How are you going to prosecute street sellers - generally illegal immigrants - who are not going to be able to pay fines, et. The real culprits are very difficult to trace, although Customs Police have been able to dismantle some organizations. Fining buyers will discourage purchases and sorry again, this type of commercial activity does nothing to help the Italian economy or the poor migrants, victims of organized crime. And I should add that I doubt very much that tourists come to Italy exclusively to buy fake Prada bags...
And tourists are not the only buyers, most of them are Italians.
This is an interesting link Counterfeit Industry
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Well GP, I think M'Lud/M'Ludess has made his/her point very well!Carciofo wrote:If you look at the way the production and distribution of designer brands is dealt with in the UK, you can see that is done very differently. Anyone who sells a product under a false brand name is guilty of Passing Off. This would apply to the seller of any type, whether a store or a street trader. Further, there is copyright and design right infringement which is aimed at dishonest manufacturers and distributors, not buyers. The UK systems looks at where the money is and goes after the guilty parties with the deepest pockets. There is a reasonable cost benefit analysis attached to the detection of crime and the manpower and time required in scrutinising purchases by individuals just doesn't make a lot of financial sense to my way of thinking plus it is likely to hurt tourists who provide significant funds to the Italian economy.ghiro wrote:I have sympathy with the views expressed above by our resident Artichoke.
ghiro- Moderator
- Location : Massa-Carrara
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Join date : 2013-05-24
Re: Help for Migrants.
Sorry, but most counterfeit enters Continental Europe illegally, generally from China. Perhaps the fact that the UK is made of islands makes the entry of those goods more difficult. So your system may be different because of circumstances. Italian police can do very little besides arresting the poor migrant who will generally be deported... And those who buy from them are as guilty, or even more. I would rather fine the buyer who should know better.
Isn't this a thread about how to help migrants?
And the Italian Police also tries to find the heads of organized crime Fake goods seized
Isn't this a thread about how to help migrants?
And the Italian Police also tries to find the heads of organized crime Fake goods seized
Last edited by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:32 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Addition)
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
I don't for a second dispute a country's right to set its own laws and nothing I've said indicates that I do.
I am criticising the decision Italian legislators made on this issue because, in my opinion, it doesn't achieve a great deal and has the potential to engender hostility amongst tourists who may not know what the law is in Italy when they go there for a week or two's holiday.
And how do you prosecute street sellers? You license them. It is not possible for a street trader to ply his or her trade on the streets of British cities without a licence and if they do, they are moved on or arrested or whatever as soon as they are discovered by police.
If the street traders you are talking about are all illegal immigrants, then it should be pretty easy for the Caribinieri to round them up and send them packing.
I am criticising the decision Italian legislators made on this issue because, in my opinion, it doesn't achieve a great deal and has the potential to engender hostility amongst tourists who may not know what the law is in Italy when they go there for a week or two's holiday.
And how do you prosecute street sellers? You license them. It is not possible for a street trader to ply his or her trade on the streets of British cities without a licence and if they do, they are moved on or arrested or whatever as soon as they are discovered by police.
If the street traders you are talking about are all illegal immigrants, then it should be pretty easy for the Caribinieri to round them up and send them packing.
Carciofo- Elder
- Posts : 143
Join date : 2013-06-03
Re: Help for Migrants.
The majority of the buyers of counterfeit goods in Italy are Italians, not tourists (who generally prefer to buy from designer outlets), so the law is designed to punish Italian buyers and serve as a deterrant. I have seen the Police in action several times and they go straight to Italians asking for the "scontrino". I have never seen a tourist being approached. The counterfeit industry is a real problem in Italy and this will give you some idea Counterfeits in Italy
The Police also chases street sellers, who are constantly moving; however, I don't think that they are too keen to expell them. I feel sorry for these people, they have arrived in Italy under very difficult circumstances and they are victims of organized crime. Certainly, the heads of those organizations are the ones who should be arrested, brought to trial and condemned. But I guess that it is very difficult to implement. So perhaps the Italian law is important to discourage Italian buyers.
The Police also chases street sellers, who are constantly moving; however, I don't think that they are too keen to expell them. I feel sorry for these people, they have arrived in Italy under very difficult circumstances and they are victims of organized crime. Certainly, the heads of those organizations are the ones who should be arrested, brought to trial and condemned. But I guess that it is very difficult to implement. So perhaps the Italian law is important to discourage Italian buyers.
Gala Placidia- Moderator
- Posts : 1840
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Italian stall holders are licenced. Here on the market in Bordighera you get a receipt when you buy something, even from the chinese clothing stalls.
The fake goods sellers are mostly run by gangs. The problem with arresting the street sellers is that then what do the authorities do with them? Most are illegally in this country and therefore have no legal address or id docs so the moment you arrest them you (as a nation) are likely to become responsible for housing them, feeding them etc etc. It is better to go after the gangs that run them and do a roaring trade in people trafficking and discourage buyers from buying from these guys. The point is not so much whether the goods you buy are counterfeit (although that is also a criminal activity) but the fact that you bought from an unlicenced seller without a receipt.
The fake goods sellers are mostly run by gangs. The problem with arresting the street sellers is that then what do the authorities do with them? Most are illegally in this country and therefore have no legal address or id docs so the moment you arrest them you (as a nation) are likely to become responsible for housing them, feeding them etc etc. It is better to go after the gangs that run them and do a roaring trade in people trafficking and discourage buyers from buying from these guys. The point is not so much whether the goods you buy are counterfeit (although that is also a criminal activity) but the fact that you bought from an unlicenced seller without a receipt.
Admin- Admin
- Location : Italy
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Spot on Penny. If people whether Italian nationals or Tourist stopped buying 'hookey' gear from these gang based sellers, the trade in peoples misery would take a large step to being solved.
Flip- Elder
- Location : nr. Bagni Di Lucca. LU
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Re: Help for Migrants.
Totally agree, Admin, and it is easy to realize that this is yet another problem area within the huge migrant nightmare. I recently watched a French TV program devoted to the illegal street sellers in the border area between France and Italy. There is good cooperation between the two forces, which has led to multiple arrests thanks to the surveillance by both authorities, particularly in Ventimiglia. Plain clothes French policemen patrol the markets and take note of any suspicious activity. They share the information with the Italians in uniform and this strategy has led to the arrest of some bosses of the criminal organization. You had to see the living conditions of those poor migrants used as sellers!
Gala Placidia- Moderator
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