Italy Breaks Your Heart

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Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Carciofo on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:19 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/opinion/sunday/bruni-italy-breaks-your-heart.html?_r=0

Despite the headline and several paragraphs of gloom, the odd hint of hopeful anticipation seems to peek through the writing.

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Carciofo on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:23 pm

Also very interesting are the many comments after the article

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:34 pm

Ah yes, just seen this link here as well Abruzzolutely LINK Seems to be a few people on these forums interested in Italian politics. I can take or leave it, in fact also getting away from UK politics is nice... However I don't see anything different now compared to what I've read many times about Italy's historic political situation. We (in western Europe) are living on our past and need to wake up to the fact and move on.... In the mean time I'll sit this one out and watch the world (and western Europe) go by...

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Carciofo on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:57 pm

stevegwmonkseaton wrote:... I don't see anything different now compared to what I've read many times about Italy's historic political situation...


Some trends, such as the emigration of young Italians who no longer believe they will be able to find jobs in Italy, may not be noticeable from your end.   We certainly hear many many more Italian voices on the streets of London so from this vantage point I would say it's true.  

On the other hand I must say I always love coming to Italy and avoiding the British press so I don't hear about all the ghastly things that are supposed to be going on in the UK.  Smile

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:11 pm

Not looked into the proportion, and figures after WorldWar II are not provided. However this shows they have been leaving for a long time.... Wiki LINK Perhaps London is seen as a bit closer than NY USA these days! The other factor (and I think there are many more) is that people are much more cosmopolitan in their outlook and prepared to up sticks! I read somewhere a while back that London is the 3rd biggest French city in terms of numbers of French living there, I find that amazing!!!

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by ghiro on Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:54 pm

Great link our Artichoke.  Thank you. 

My impression of Italians, at least in my rural corner of Massa Carrara, is that they're incredibly conservative.   

There are 2 ways of doing things - their way and the wrong way!  Whether it's the exact week you plant your potatoes, making pasta or even (on one occasion) parking my car at the supermarket! 

Recently I was digging holes to plant some new olive trees.  A neighbour dropped by and roundly abused me for making the holes too big.  Not long afterwards another neighbour happened to pop over and he also roundly abused me.......for making the holes too small!

So my deduction?  I agree with Steve that the Italians are stuck in the past and need to 'move on'.  However they are held back by their centuries old natural conservatism and the fact that if you put 4 Italians in a room to address a problem they'll come out with 5 different solutions!
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:43 pm

Right, have you finished moaning and crying? Very interesting links; however, it's not all doom and gloom. Cheer up and read this other link: Italy's outlook:D 
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Same old song...

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:00 pm

Gala Placidia wrote:Right, have you finished moaning and crying? Very interesting links; however, it's not all doom and gloom. Cheer up and read this other link: Italy's outlook:D 
.. regurgitation of the other sides views where by Italy is doing well.... Ok I could only bare reading half of it (well a little more perhaps). Fair enough to point out that private debt is low here and their wealth substantial, but that the technology is is even approaching good is a joke. A number of people have even went as far as to say it's 3rd world... or less!!! Going a bit far, but it is quirky to say the least... Infrastructure is totally disjointed and in places none existent! Right I've finished for now.... Oh and by the way... I'd be loathe to change a thing, just in case it spoils the place Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:27 am

Steve, I think that it all depends on regions and the subjective point of view. A Third World Country? Don't make me laugh... or cry... People who say that have never been in a Third World Country. Progress relys on research and innovation and, according to statistics, Italy does very well in that field CNR statistics
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Admin on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:54 am

I had an interesting chat with a Californian guy yesterday who was very much of the impression that Italy was far more tecnologically advanced than California with one exception - the internet. He said he got the impression that Italians were just not bothered about it and that it was irrelevant to them.
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Admin on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:00 am

I also read a break down of the much-cited 40% youth unemployment figure and it is not only made up of those seeking employment but also those who are not (ie NEET's in the UK) plus stay-at-home mums, students on gap years etc etc. Once you removed these from the figures, the figure went down to 17%.

I think the much bigger issue is what type of contract people are on. It is night on impossible to get a full-time permanent contract. The knock-on effect is that you never know if you have a job next year so cannot plan any life-changing events (marriage, babies etc) and it is practically impossible to get a mortgage. No wonder Italy has such a low birth-rate!
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:32 am

... as I said...
but that the technology is is even approaching good is a joke. A number of people have even went as far as to say it's 3rd world... or less!!! Going a bit far, but it is quirky to say the least...
Not that the entire country is 3rd world... but it might be heading that way... "3rd world" changes every day and what you saw 5-10 years ago may be far different today...

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:49 pm

Admin, I am afraid that employment is not what it used to be only a few years ago, permanent , stable and people could very well start working for a company immediately after finishing school or uni and retire some thirty years after still working for the same company. Most people are nowadays under short term contracts and have to be prepared to change positions and employers several times during their working life. The good old days will never come back, at least for the majority of workers. This is a changing world. I also agree with what you  in that youth unemployment figures are not very reliable.

Steve, I repeat, this is a changing world and conditions may vary in a very short time; however, I insist, Italy is far from being a Third World country, although there are big differences between regions, not to mention the proverbial ones which have always existed between North and South. Having said that, you may have a wonderful life even in the most "deprived" regions, providing that you have the money to pay for it. Life, nowadays, is much easier than say 50-100 years ago.
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:57 pm

Gala you can insist all you like, but perhaps don't read too well Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:09 pm

Anyone can have as much "technology" as wanted. It is only a matter of making the right choices and having the money which will be required to fulfill this wish. And in any case, if "technology" is a priority, that  person will choose to live in a place where "technology" is widely available and there would be plenty of places in Italy where this would not be a problem. It is a simple matter of priorities. You cannot live in an isolated place and have all the advantages of living in a major city.
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:53 pm

Gala I've been all over Italy and used many of their web sites... They are years behind in almost everything to do with IT. A simple example is using a Direct Debit, with almost every bank in the UK you can set your own up online and change or stop it... Here they still keep bits of paper filed away. I could provide many more, but hey I live here (unlike you) all the time. They are still using text based computer systems in the post office, something that went out in the UK about 10-15 years ago... !

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:20 pm

Steve, I am a bit perplexed by your statements, as perhaps things are a bit different in your neck of the woods and it's a long time since I last visited Abruzzo. As far as I know and from my own experience, Italy is quite advanced in IT services Internet in Italy
We have no problems whatsoever with our Italian bank  and we pay most of our bills through direct debit. If we have any specific difficulties, we contact them over the net or ring them.
As for the Post Office, we do not use it very much; however, it does not surprise me that they would be reluctant to spend too much in modernising their equipment. I am afraid that the Post Office is quickly disappearing from the face of the Earth and, although they are trying to survive by adding other servces, they will be privatised or they will simply go out of business.
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Gala, sorry but I can only go on what I see... This is not limited to Abruzzo (as stated we have been all over Italy). You obviously do not do IT too well and don't know good from bad..! Only spending reasonable time in the UK and Italy, they are the only comparison I can make and I know how far behind Italy is when it comes to IT.

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:39 pm

Steve, I spend quite a substantial part of the year in San Francisco, USA and both my children work there in companies  within the field of IT... As I said earlier, I do not notice those differences that you mention. Yes, some places may have poorer reception; however, I think that this may be expected in certain areas whether in Europe, the States, or anywhere else in the world. IT is advancing at quite a fast pace and I am confident in that we will see plenty of improvements within a short time. But then, I always tend to see the glass half full Very Happy
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:49 pm

Gala, I worked in real IT for almost 30 years ... so know good and bad for myself and taught my children IT (and still do)... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by ghiro on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:52 pm

40 - 30 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Flip on Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:38 am

It proves the point when nearly every Business relies on Fax machines, not email. Who the hell in the UK uses Faxes anymore.
Certainly not Banks.
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:44 pm

I have never received a fax from my Italian bank. All communications are conducted via email or telephone...
Are you certain that we are talking about the same country? 
Amazing!!!Rolling Eyes
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Flip on Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:10 pm

Yeah Gala we are; when we were asked to fill in some documents we were told that they would be sent to the house or faxed over, then we were to sign and send them back either by post or fax. When we enquired if they could be sent by via email, signed then scanned and sent back we were told 'oh no sorry the Bank does not use electronic mail for documents' to which I replied well what is a fax then> She declined to reply.
Also lots of Businesses use only Fax machines, Insurance companies, Accountants, the list goes on...
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Re: Italy Breaks Your Heart

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:34 pm

It never happened to us before. The only case I could vaguely remember was Council asking us to fax a copy of a payment we were doing by transfer ( I think it was TARSU or similar...) and this was only to make sure that Council would be able to easily locate our payment. We do not even have a fax at home in Italy... I'm starting to wonder whether we need one...Rolling Eyes
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