underfloor heating

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underfloor heating

Post by La Dolcevita on Mon May 27, 2013 3:35 am

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We're looking to put underfloor heating in to our property as it seems to be the most efficient (can't bare the cold) and most economical long term - our architect has put a spanner in the works as he has said that it can take a few hours to warm up/cool down. Has anyone had any experience of underfloor heating - thoughts/comments appreciated

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Xcel HEATBANK Question

Post by mlinsin on Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:09 am

Sagraiasolar wrote:Ha ... just proves my point that architects are behind the curve.A buffer tank has no problem with mixed outputs (rads + floors) and IMHO you want to keep them separate anyway so a different pump for each controlled by progstats does that neatly.The best solution for you is UFH on the ground floor - very economical and just plain nice to live with. For bedrooms it used to be rads (fast response times and cheaper) but to be heat pump friendly I favour fan coils which are even faster and are happier with lower temps and so more efficient.  I know UFH is often used in bedrooms too but personally I really hate sleeping over a heated floor and anyway if you are well heated downstairs the floors above get pretty warm already. If your man has designed the floors so marginally that a few kilos of pipes would collapse them I wouldn't even go upstairs at all. As for the thick tiles, they heat up much quicker than you'd imagine... when testing the floor circuits you take your shoes off and you can tell in 10 minutes if a floor has just gone on.  Transmission on old stone houses can be a bit marginal so make sure your architect has done his calculations carefully.



Hi, 

I did some reading on your website and I like the idea of having a system that can grow / change with the needs

So here are my 2 questions:
a) do you distribute and install / service the Xcel HEATBANK in Italy ?
b) what is the cost for the 500l unit including shipping?
thanks
Markus
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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Sagraiasolar on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:02 am

Marcus,

I supply and advise but don't install.  Your plumber has to be the installer as he has to sign it all off in the end.  Service is not an issue as there aren't things to service except the heat exchanger might need a flush every 6 years or so.  All the components on the tank are fairly standard and available locally.  

The Xcel heat bank varies a lot depending on spec but £4,500 would probably cover it.  My favoured stove to match the tank also varies but roughly £2,250.  all inc VAT.  The plumber should reduce his quote substantially as the tank is so easy to install.

Transport to Italy is £360 for either or both.  I expect the forum is yawning now so feel free to chat further on heatingitaly (AT) gmail.com
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Re: underfloor heating

Post by La Dolcevita on Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:40 pm

Today has been a monumental day - we finally have our UFH working.  For those of you with UFH or that know about it - what temperature would you recommend having the following rooms set at:-

Our bedroom - don't want heat at night when sleeping 
Guest bedrooms - when no-one here (when guests here we'll do the same as ours)
Living area - in the morning but then figure the heat from the sun/wood burner will be fine

Any other advice/suggestions welcome

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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Geotherm on Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:07 pm

La Dolcevita wrote:Today has been a monumental day - we finally have our UFH working.  For those of you with UFH or that know about it - what temperature would you recommend having the following rooms set at:-Our bedroom - don't want heat at night when sleeping Guest bedrooms - when no-one here (when guests here we'll do the same as ours)Living area - in the morning but then figure the heat from the sun/wood burner will be fine

Any other advice/suggestions welcome

Well, a difficult question to answer:
1. What type of system is it for the heating?

2. How much control/timers have you got over the different areas?

The floor mass is going to hold the heat for quite a few hours, so even if you shut it down you will still be getting heat.

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Geothermal System - initial estimate

Post by mlinsin on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:54 pm

Geotherm wrote:
mlinsin wrote:
Geotherm wrote:Hi Markus.Are the floors being relaid, to conform with earthquake requirements?If it is a mixed type heating system, then it should just require a buffer tank and a mixer valve to smooth the temps out. Not complicated at all.With the radiant floor, because it operates at lower temperatures, then no problem. Just realise you will not get instant heat and a geothermal system is a 24/7 operation.
sorry, I voted by accident on your post, I thought it would collapse the response :-)The ground floor doesn't even exist today so it is created from scratch.That is no problem.We did ask for a seismic evaluation of the building and we have a structural engineer involved.Good, he will probably know a lot more than the architect.What is a mixed type heating system? Keep in mind, we are just at the beginning so many decisions have not been made yet which I guess is a good thing.See belowWhat I hear you say is that because radiators and underheating work on different temp. levels, we would include a buffer tank which brings the temp down and the valve would then mix the water of diff. temps to bring the temp for radiant heat to the required temp?CorrectIs your last answer the answer to the tile thickness question?So radiant heat can go through the thick tiles as long as we don't expect this to happen in a few hours, rightA 24/7 system means you have to run it all the time? Can you not switch off a geothermo system?Yes, you can switch off the geothermal system if you want, but these systems are designed to run at their most efficient on a 24/7 basis. You can do a heat reduction on the flow temperature overnight on a timer.For the next years, we will not even live there in the winter, just in the summer as a vacation home. But in 10 years or so, we plan to retire there

Which of course brings up another question: With all the technology changes happening, should we maybe go for a simple solution now (natural gas) and wait out to install a more sophisticated geothermal system?
Simple now, advanced later.

thanks
Markus












Hi Geotherm,

our architect has digged a bit into this after we asked him and he came back with the following info (I shortened some of his explanations)
From your expert perspective, does this sound reasonable?

My info:
House size: 220, walls are very thick with about 40 cm of thickness, we don't have a thermal survey but plan to do this, so I guess some of this can / will eventually change.
I am just trying to understand whether his info and numbers are roughly in the ball park


*******
Architect info:
- House needs around 10 kW of heating power
- Considering the nature of the ground, its extractable power and a heating pump with C.O.P.* of 4,6 (good production efficiency), the piping required would be around 120 m.
- Due to size limitations of the properties, it can be possible to install vertical geothermal probes that go down for 40 meters inside the ground. So 3 probes are necessary.

​ ​
​ ​
To estimate the cost of this system I decided to use “Umbria List of prices” for construction works. It is usually used for public works but it’s good also for private ones.
​ ​
Geothermal system:
​ ​
Item consists of a fixed price of 10.058,00 euro, plus 250,00 euro each kW: only for the heating pump and linked systems

the amount is 12.558,00​ euro​
Here (http://www.idraulicapiatti.org/2010/05/prezzi-indicativi-per-impianti.html) you can find the cost for probes. Considering a cost of 45,00 euro per meter length, we have a cost of 5.400,00 euro for probes.

Final cost of the whole the system is around 18.000,00 euro​
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Re: underfloor heating

Post by La Dolcevita on Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:22 pm

Oh boo - I thought it might be easy..............Sad

It's a water based UFH system with BPT TH350 thermostats in a number of Zones - each of the areas above has it's own zone which as far as I can tell we can programme for both day and night/different times  

I know we'll probably have to spend this year playing around with it - it's just figuring out a good starting point

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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Geotherm on Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:16 pm

Marcus.

Do not go down the borehole line. If you only need 10 kw, then you are probably looking at a couple of maximum 100mtr excavations, with a 11kw output pump.

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Vertical vs. Horizontal loops

Post by mlinsin on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:37 pm

Geotherm wrote:Marcus.Do not go down the borehole line. If you only need 10 kw, then you are probably looking at a couple of maximum 100mtr excavations, with a 11kw output pump.

Hi Geotherm,

are there any restrictions with regards to the horizontal loops?
Our property has a slight slope and I wonder whether the pipes have to be absolutely even in terms of horizontal slope, in other words, is a slight slope for the loops acceptable?

Also, are there are specifics around how far away (or close) the loops have to be from the heatpump itself?

thanks (again)
Markus
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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Geotherm on Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:04 pm

mlinsin wrote:
Geotherm wrote:Marcus.Do not go down the borehole line. If you only need 10 kw, then you are probably looking at a couple of maximum 100mtr excavations, with a 11kw output pump.
Hi Geotherm,
are there any restrictions with regards to the horizontal loops?
Horizontal loops are normally 2x 1.2mtr wide x 1.2-1.5mtrs deep with a seperation minimum of 3 mtrs between each excavation. 4 lines are laid in each 30cms apart.(2 out, 2 in).
Our property has a slight slope and I wonder whether the pipes have to be absolutely even in terms of horizontal slope, in other words, is a slight slope for the loops acceptable?
Slope ...... uphill from the house or downhill?

Also, are there are specifics around how far away (or close) the loops have to be from the heatpump itself?
The collectors for the pump can be up to 40mtrs away, but obviously the nearer the better.

thanks (again)
Markus

Send me a PM with a email address and I will send you some pictures of recent projects, so you can get a better idea.

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Horizontal Slope

Post by mlinsin on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:13 pm

Geotherm wrote:
mlinsin wrote:
Geotherm wrote:Marcus.Do not go down the borehole line. If you only need 10 kw, then you are probably looking at a couple of maximum 100mtr excavations, with a 11kw output pump.
Hi Geotherm,are there any restrictions with regards to the horizontal loops?Horizontal loops are normally 2x 1.2mtr wide x 1.2-1.5mtrs deep with a seperation minimum of 3 mtrs between each excavation. 4 lines are laid in each 30cms apart.(2 out, 2 in).ML: OK, thanksOur property has a slight slope and I wonder whether the pipes have to be absolutely even in terms of horizontal slope, in other words, is a slight slope for the loops acceptable?Slope ...... uphill from the house or downhill?ML: well, we have potentially 2 options. One is to put the loop around the house, we need to do some digging around the house anyway to stabilize the walls and put some structural enforcements in (for seismic reasons). I wonder whether we can use this digging to put the loop around the house but there is a horizontal slope  (up and down) around the house.The alternative is to use the olive tree garden that is part of the property but it is up the hill from the house, I would say probably 5-6 meters higher than the house so uphill from the house

Also, are there are specifics around how far away (or close) the loops have to be from the heatpump itself?
The collectors for the pump can be up to 40mtrs away, but obviously the nearer the better.
ML: hm, that would be very tight.
When you say the collectors, what does that mean?
The heatpump itself?


On another note, a friend of mine is an architect and we talked over the weekend about geothermal.
He is a big fan of Viesmann and since I am German, I tend to like German quality and engineering :-)
What do you think of Viesmann equipment?

thanks (again)
Markus

Send me a PM with a email address and I will send you some pictures of recent projects, so you can get a better idea.
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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Geotherm on Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:50 pm

mlinsin wrote:
Geotherm wrote:
mlinsin wrote:
Geotherm wrote:Marcus.Do not go down the borehole line. If you only need 10 kw, then you are probably looking at a couple of maximum 100mtr excavations, with a 11kw output pump.
Hi Geotherm,are there any restrictions with regards to the horizontal loops?Horizontal loops are normally 2x 1.2mtr wide x 1.2-1.5mtrs deep with a seperation minimum of 3 mtrs between each excavation. 4 lines are laid in each 30cms apart.(2 out, 2 in).ML: OK, thanksOur property has a slight slope and I wonder whether the pipes have to be absolutely even in terms of horizontal slope, in other words, is a slight slope for the loops acceptable?Slope ...... uphill from the house or downhill?ML: well, we have potentially 2 options. One is to put the loop around the house, we need to do some digging around the house anyway to stabilize the walls and put some structural enforcements in (for seismic reasons). I wonder whether we can use this digging to put the loop around the house but there is a horizontal slope  (up and down) around the house.The alternative is to use the olive tree garden that is part of the property but it is up the hill from the house, I would say probably 5-6 meters higher than the house so uphill from the house
There is a possibility that if you go on the uphill option, then there may be a need for venting on the loops, but that is no problem. The horizontal/downhill is the best option.

Also, are there are specifics around how far away (or close) the loops have to be from the heatpump itself?The collectors for the pump can be up to 40mtrs away, but obviously the nearer the better.ML: hm, that would be very tight.When you say the collectors, what does that mean?The heatpump itself?On another note, a friend of mine is an architect and we talked over the weekend about geothermal.He is a big fan of Viesmann and since I am German, I tend to like German quality and engineering :-)What do you think of Viesmann equipment?

The collectors are where the ground loops are joined to, not the pump. This can be up to 40mtrs away.
Viesmann, I only know one person who has one of their systems and he seems to be happy with it. We mainly use IVT Swedish units, which are now part of the Bosch group.Mine here has been running about 10 years now, with basically only a 3 way valve change a year ago.


thanks (again)
Markus

Send me a PM with a email address and I will send you some pictures of recent projects, so you can get a better idea.

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Re: underfloor heating

Post by Geotherm on Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:17 pm

La Dolcevita wrote:Oh boo - I thought it might be easy..............Sad It's a water based UFH system with BPT TH350 thermostats in a number of Zones - each of the areas above has it's own zone which as far as I can tell we can programme for both day and night/different times  I know we'll probably have to spend this year playing around with it - it's just figuring out a good starting point

Further thoughts:

Set the bedroom thermostats to 16-17C. You can play around with the temperatures, but I would not suggest turning the system off as such. Try a temperature setback of maybe 2C maximum. If you setback much more, then you could find heating costs may get quite high.

In the main living areas, I would not turn the heating off, but again use a overnight drop of maybe 2C. During a reasonable day, the room stats will control the heating system. Suggested UFH room temperature is 19C, but it is obviously up to you to get a comfortable setting.

My system is completely different to yours, as it gets external air temp sensor to talk to the heatpump and ramp up/down heating as required. There is no thermostat control in the house (just a sensor), and the pump reduces flow temperatures by 1.5C overnight.

Hope this helps

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Re: underfloor heating

Post by La Dolcevita on Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:15 am

Fantastic - thank you so much.  We've got it turned right down now as it's so mild - but we thought about 14/15 but had no idea re how much to reduce the set back temp.  Really helpful as it gives us a starting base - thanks again Very Happy:D:D

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Re: underfloor heating

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