Is there really a place for this??

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Is there really a place for this??

Post by Flip on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:21 am

Tuscany Exorcisms

I can not believe that there is a need for this antiquated, medieval practice in this day and age. Surely the "Church" should be dispelling this myth and facing the problems of Mental Health in society. What next Ducking Stools in the Arno, burning Witches in Piazza del Duomo...... really !!
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exorcisms...

Post by sebastiano on Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:02 pm

i wouldn't be surprised...
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Sorry, but I love this post....

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:37 pm

No, no... I am really sorry... I'd not looked at the link Flip had put. We had people around and I was only flitting when I read the post. 
I know we have religious people here and I've been admonished in the past for having a go at it. However this is a joke and beyond representation of normal RC behaviour and even I see it as just an excentric that needs to be rained in!   Tell me it's a wind up Flip? Or should I expect a ducking!

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by The Original Relaxed on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:22 pm

I read the article, and I found it incredibly offensive. Some pillock writing for The Independent and struggling to connect 'the huge rise in exorcisms' (which if you read it carefully actually isn't stood up at al) with economic malaise and a lack of 'professional' attention to mental conditions such as depression. 

It's complete and utter sensationalist rubbish, the article, and if it had appeared in the Daily Mail I would just shrug, but that The Independent would publish this garbage makes me extremely annoyed. It's basically a play on the anti-Muslim rhetoric which holds sway in the globalised press. Much more apposite would be an article considering the worryingly increased suicide rates amongst Italians (of all religions) which, IMO, can be directly linked to the ghastly economic climate. But that's globalised politics for you - you are not supposed to say anything - so let's go on a fantasy witch hunt.

Sorry - but I find this sort of gutter journalism repulsive.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:43 pm

Ah right I can sleep well then... Wink

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Flip on Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:55 am

The Original Relaxed wrote:I read the article, and I found it incredibly offensive. Some pillock writing for The Independent and struggling to connect 'the huge rise in exorcisms' (which if you read it carefully actually isn't stood up at al) with economic malaise and a lack of 'professional' attention to mental conditions such as depression. It's complete and utter sensationalist rubbish, the article, and if it had appeared in the Daily Mail I would just shrug, but that The Independent would publish this garbage makes me extremely annoyed. It's basically a play on the anti-Muslim rhetoric which holds sway in the globalised press. Much more apposite would be an article considering the worryingly increased suicide rates amongst Italians (of all religions) which, IMO, can be directly linked to the ghastly economic climate. But that's globalised politics for you - you are not supposed to say anything - so let's go on a fantasy witch hunt.Sorry - but I find this sort of gutter journalism repulsive.

Sorry Lax but how you conclude "It's basically a play on the anti-Muslim rhetoric which holds sway in the globalised press" from that article (good Journalism or not) is beyond me.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:09 am

The Original Relaxed wrote:I read the article, and I found it incredibly offensive. Some pillock writing for The Independent and struggling to connect 'the huge rise in exorcisms' (which if you read it carefully actually isn't stood up at al) with economic malaise and a lack of 'professional' attention to mental conditions such as depression. It's complete and utter sensationalist rubbish, the article, and if it had appeared in the Daily Mail I would just shrug, but that The Independent would publish this garbage makes me extremely annoyed. It's basically a play on the anti-Muslim rhetoric which holds sway in the globalised press. Much more apposite would be an article considering the worryingly increased suicide rates amongst Italians (of all religions) which, IMO, can be directly linked to the ghastly economic climate. But that's globalised politics for you - you are not supposed to say anything - so let's go on a fantasy witch hunt.Sorry - but I find this sort of gutter journalism repulsive.

Well I read it again in the morning light and without analysing the quality of the piece at all. I can't help but think exorcism is a very weird thing to still have around in this day and age Question

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by modicasa on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:49 am

Unless my ageing memory is playing tricks (or I have been possessed), the current pope is rather in favour of excorcisms and has been looking to appoint a few new ones: 
http://www.blitzquotidiano.it/cronaca-italia/chiesa-recluta-esorcisti-padre-vincenzo-taraborelli-agenda-sempre-piena-1766425/

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by The Original Relaxed on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:27 pm

Yes -  Pope Francis has been keener to consider exorcism a 'useful tool' than previous pontiffs (this was alluded to in the Independent article). 

I seem to be alone in thinking of this as a progressive step: whether you take it to mean Pope Francis regards it as a bit of silliness to be tolerated, or whether you take it to mean that he is saying that anything which helps a person to overcome their demons (literally) must be worth a try. Perhaps if we look at exorcism as a form of 'talking therapy' (all the rage in the UK and the US) we might be less dismissive. That's one point I really take issue with in the article.

My mention of the received wisdom, as promulgated by the media, (shorthand - that we should fear Muslims) is all about designing derision about any 'others'. And so this journalist decides that ridiculing the idea of exorcism somehow binds together 'right thinking people' in some sort of modern day crusade to sell CocaCola.

I think I should probably go to the comments page of this article to vent my spleen, rather than inflicting myself on you!
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:50 am

Well I personally think it’s an interesting subject in as much it stems from Italy and touches on the reasons that I perceive to be a different culture here. I’m sure if you has a poll in England to see if people there think exorcism is appropriate in this day and age, over 90% would say “no”, here in Italy I would not be surprised at all if was be as low as 50% ! Regards the suggestion it could help people who are mentally ill, I’m sure we all know they used to have lots of methods they thought did some good – Flip mentions a couple, and for me Jack Nicholson comes to mind.
OR, you said you did not expect such things from the Independent, which implies you have read enough to be able to judge them. I know I should have, but I did not even look to see what site it was, nor read it fully, just simply the subject and the fact it is still going on! I therefore bow to your experience of the paper, but would suggest you read too much into the article. I give reading the papers years ago, but see headlines and the news often enough to know that having a go at Muslims is fair game to them, just wish they would do the same with a certain Mr Putin. However I don’t think in either case there is not another side to the story. But lopping off people’s heads and trying to re-build empires is out of order – ok exorcists we can perhaps put up with!


PS, missed Flips last comment until today, this is due to posting at the same time. That other forum is good as it tells you before you post that someone has done so as you were typing...

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by modicasa on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:54 am

Except that its not talking therapy.  It is often physical abuse of mentally ill people.  Whether it is a cardinal, an African witchdoctor or some evangelical American pastor the effects are the same.  I have seen an 'excorcism' unfortunately with a religious person screaming into the face of a child with cerebral palsy to cast out his demons. It was utterly repulsive.  It doesnt matter what costume the excorcist puts on, it is a medieval practise born of ignorance and the abuse of power.

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:07 pm

Hi, I have just arrived in BdL and I missed the discussion. I am very busy today and I would like to gather my thoughts before responding,; however, I would like to share this article and if you do a bit of a search on this topic, you will find that there is quite a lot of interest in it http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/my-life-as-an-exorcist#comments
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Flip on Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Gala there are so many nutters around, it does not surprise me at all that there is considerable interest in that subject, as well as UFO abductions, Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster etc.
When people cannot explain a 'situation' one avenue is to look down the Fantasy Route (unfortunately Demonic possession fits this category) as it is far easier to write something off to a Alien/Demonic/Fantastic source rather than considering physical evidence or mental health of the reporter; also it is very hard to disprove something which cannot easily be explained.
Having 'Faith' however is a potent ally in all this as I actually believe in Fairies as they cured my warts when I was a child.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by modicasa on Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:38 pm

I would suspect that since films started on the swivelling head syndrome, cases of demonic possession have ballooned especially in fundamentalist christian society.  Autosuggestion and subconscious fear having alot to do with it.

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:45 pm

Here I am, having sorted out most of the things that needed sorting out. Anyway, here are my thoughts:
The article is basically a sensationalist piece of journalism which tries to exploit certain events and facts. Exorcism is nothing new in the Catholic Church and many other religions; however, the Vatican has implemented some very strict guidelines which limit the performance of an exorcism. the latest set of guidelines was issued in 1999. First of all, it would be important to realize that exorcism is a SACRAMENTAL RITE, which may only be performed by a Bishop, or a specially trained ORDAINED PRIEST appointed by a bishop. It also requires that the person  to be exorcised must be checked first by both a doctor and a psychiatrist to rule out substance abuse, or mental health problems.So it is not to be administered just to anyone without evaluation.
It would be important to realize that the Catholic Church is rapidly expanding in places such as Africa, Asia and the Americas, where the use of chamans, witch doctors and healers is widely practised and I would say that the training of more " specialists" is due to the fact that there is an increasing demand for those rites, which should only be administered AFTER verifying the mental and physical health of the person.
Well before our modern times when a cohort of psychologists and psychiatrists are sent to the scene of any accident or event, the Church played an important role in assisting people with their sufferings and problems. The confessional was the psychiatrist or psychologist's consulting room and I do not think that the priests did any worse than some of these specialists...
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:55 pm

Then there is another question that we should ask ourselves: Is there a Devil, Satan, Evil spirit... or whatever we want to call it? This is a matter of faith, but if it exists, perhaps the idea of having to cast it away is not that crazy. When we have a look at what is going on right now and what is happening around us, it becomes obvious that there may be evil forces at work. And perhaps we may be needing more trained exorcists (certainly not Hollywood style). If you are interested in the topic there is a lot of information available on what it is all about. Wikipedia gives an excellent summary. Twisted Evil
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by The Original Relaxed on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:05 pm

I must apologise to modicasa (who clearly experienced something horrific in Africa) - which undoubtedly resulted from Catholic (or at least Christian) - extreme attitudes to exorcism.

But I'm (for just about the first time!) finding that I have some common ground with Gala. I was brought up atheist (non of your apologist agnostic stuff), but grounded in Greek myths and other fantasies, and exorcism seems to me to be a quite important philosophical concept - to do with the human soul. And I believe that exorcism can be helpful to some troubled souls, whether connected to a formal religion or not. You do not have to be religious to believe you have a soul.

I'm a big (atheist) fan of Papa Francesco, and I'm sure that when he - maybe attempts to 'regulate' exorcists - he intends to eliminate the horrors which modicasa reports. 

I'm also very hopeful that the current 'extraordinary synod' on the family will result in agreement to ditch some of the outdated notions to which the Cardinals have been absurdly attached. Pope Francis seems to me to be a man with a mission, and he intends to complete this mission with some urgency. It matters not a jot to me whether he's a Catholic or a Mullah - he is simply a reasonable voice, and I hope (and actually, I believe, so long as he says something concrete) that he will be supported by the twittering classes of every persuasion.

It's easy to dismiss him as - hey, just The Pope - not as if he's Goldman Sachs. But let's see. Ethics might be an unfashionable word, maybe the tide will turn.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:25 pm

I also agree with what you say Lax. The Catholic Church (and religions in general) are in urgent need for some tidying up and I also believe that Pope Francis is the man with that mission. I can only hope - and pray - that his health and advanced age will allow him to complete what he has in mind. 
I also think that we are going to see some interesting changes. In any case, it is great to be getting some fresh air...Very Happy
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:55 pm

Hmmm Christ is borne again.. Not bashing the current Pope - no, just wonder how long it will be before "they" take him down. Of course the wacky talk of exorcism will be held against him! O/R you need to change your cantine (or glass) as "here" and "there"  you are going the same way Smile


Last edited by stevegwmonkseaton on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarify "OR" is Lax)

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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Flip on Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:12 pm

I just hope that the Pope gets the priorities sorted out and puts as much into dealing with 'Kiddy Fiddlers' as other nefarious topics.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:03 pm

He is already doing that, Flip. Have a little faith Very Happy
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by The Original Relaxed on Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:08 am

You are trivialising what this Pope (seems to me) is trying to do, by your glib focussing on 'kiddy fiddlers'. Yes, proddies like to emphasize these "Catholic" abhorrences, but isn't this the same sort of ghastly caste war which we see in Iraq and Syria (and earlier in Northern Ireland if you need to make it parochial)?

I've been completely clear that I come from an atheist base, and Gala has been completely clear that she comes from a Catholic perspective. The fact that we both applaud Papa Francesco maybe (on a theological level) should give you pause for thought. On a (global) political level, that this one humble person (this current pope) is stirring international opinion seems to me to be very significant.
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Flip on Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:34 am

Lax no one is trivialising what the Pope is trying to do in relation to changing the perception of the Catholic Church to the masses, all I am saying is that in the league of Important Issues affecting this end, Exorcism, should be one of the last things tackled.
The link you conjured up between differences between Protestant and Catholic and what is going on in Iraq & Syria as ''ghastly caste war'' is stretching the bounds of reasoned argument, as I never once recall beheading in Northern Ireland, and most "proddies" as you call them couldn't give a Tinkers Cuss about religious strife between them and (lets use another abusive term) "Left Footers".
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

Post by Gala Placidia on Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:54 pm

Flip, I assure you that the exorcism issue does not rate very high on the list of "to do" things that Pope Francis has. On the other hand, it is a great headline for a certain type of sensationalist journalists. I can't see many articles regarding the current bishops synod, which is far much more important for the future of the Church and society in general. But it does not provide the press with "juicy" headlines...
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Re: Is there really a place for this??

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