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Permissions

Post by strawberrystar on Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:42 pm

Hi

With all the wet weather last winter we had a bit of a landslide in our garden. We have engaged a geometra who has recommended some drainage channels and to have the bank in question terraced. We also want to make some changes to flower beds and put gates on the entrance way. He explained this work will require permission from the Comune.

In preparing our plans, he has retrieved our previously submitted plans (when the property was renovated) and noted a number of differences between that which was approved and that which we have in the garden now (e.g. Different size and shape terraces, flower beds, a pergola which is not on the permission). He has told us we can submit a type of retrospective application for this and pay a fine of around 1000eu. I understand this application takes longer than the 100 days he has quoted for the new works.

My query is, seeing as we already have to pay the fine, is it really a risk to do the other works without permission and then complete one retrospective application for the whole lot and just pay the fine once. We are also keen to do the drainage works before the winter comes round again and despite our best efforts the process of preparing the plans has taken much longer than we had hoped. It is proving difficult to make progress with these queries as our Italian is pretty poor and his English is non-existent. It seems minor work to us and we are wondering if our geometra is a little too keen to do everything strictly by the rules for our liking...

Any thoughts?

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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:17 am

Where do you live?  I can think of very few places in Italy where permission is needed for a flowerbed. I suspect its all rot.   By terrace you mean a verandah, or a terrace?  A pergola possibly - just possibly - might require a permission.  Gates on an existent entrance never.  Re terracing not, flowerbeds - impossible.    The drainage works have or will affect your neighbours land?   The frana is as a result of .... ?  There may be a hydrogeological procedure for the drainage which will require a geologist and not a geometra, which would have a cost.  Otherwise I think he's taking you for a ride.

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Re: Permissions

Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:12 am

The pergola needs to be declared. The rest... I have never heard of anything like that. . Fixing the frana may be a different matter which may require a professional report, but not a permit. You have to talk to Council and clarify.
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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:51 am

What constitutes a pergola depends on your point of view really.   If its an aluminium sort of thing from a Brico type shop then it doesnt need permission, as it is 'smontabile', and is a 'garden ornament'    If its built with brick or stone 'legs' then it will as its permanent.  If it has a roof - then it will, because its no longer a pergola but a verandah or a tettoia.

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Re: Permissions

Post by strawberrystar on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:21 am

Hello everyone

The house is in Marche.

As for the drainage: geometras opinion is that the slip was due to excessive snow fall and then snow melt on this bank which is too steep. The solution would not affect anyone else's land, but the water would be channelled to enter the concrete drainage store in the public road at the bottom of our driveway. The terracing works proposed would also require the removal of some trees - although I don't believe any of them are desirable species.

The pergola we built has brick legs with open timber rafter roof. The terracing was actually built by the original building team overseen by the architetto who submitted the original drawings. We have a sort of concrete plinth which goes around the entire outside of our property (think it was the earthquake measure at the time) with various steps at different points. In reality, this plinth/walkway is different widths at different points and some of the steps have worked out differently. We have various gravel and grass areas which are also different to the original drawings submitted. We also have a pool which is shown correctly on the plans, but the terrace built around the pool is not. We would like to widen our driveway entrance where it meets the road as well as install the gates.

Is there any way of finding out what exactly does require permission? Our geometra basically tells us that everything needs permission. I really don't want to waste time as the water damage in our house is becoming an issue and therefore I am keen to install a drainage system to stop it deteriorating further.

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Re: Permissions

Post by Vicino on Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:09 am

Tales like this make my blood boil ! Some of these geometras ...................

Can you get a second opinion and tell your current chap to take a hike ?! My limited understanding is that if something is not moveable (as in concreted in), then there should be permission requested.

Protect your property would be my starting point !

Good luck,
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Re: Permissions

Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:15 am

My advice would be to contact the Comune directly with all the documents you have and some photos or sketches of the areas that may require updating or a new permit and to sort out with them their requirements. Then you can contact a relevant professional according to the Comune's instructions. The Comune is the one who has the last word.
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Re: Permissions

Post by strawberrystar on Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:57 pm

I can try. Although I have to say the comune themselves are one of the more tricky ones to deal with. Is the consensus that the drainage works and terracing to the large bank that has collapsed (by this I mean changing the levels to make it less steep and putting a number of giant steps into the bank) do not sound likely to require permission? Thanks very much everyone.

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Re: Permissions

Post by Geotherm on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:45 pm

Are you in a national park, as otherwise those things he is talking about seem crazy?

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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:04 am

OK - 

1- widening a driveway - this needs a permission if you meet a communal or provincial road.  You pay a tax yearly on the amount of kerb space you take up with your entrance, and if you widen it you will pay a larger bill.  It needs permission. 
2. how you plan your garden - gravel or lawn does not need any permission
3. Accessing a communal storm box needs permission from the comune
4. Knocking down trees.  It depends where you are - in Le Marche it may be that you're not allowed to without permission.   I would say the more trees the better if you want to consolidate the land. 
5. pool is  fine, terracing not - depends what you mean by terracing - do you mean the solarium - paved area around the pool - whcih should have been in the original plans for the pool. 

Relandscaping  can need permissions in certain places - as there are rules on moving earth for more than 30 days - if your garden is still classed as agricultural land and not as a pertinence to the house.  

Your other option is to ignore your geometra, and call in a landscape gardener and see what he says about permissions.  

Or just do it and wait to see what happens.

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Re: Permissions

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:57 am

Modi wrote:Or just do it and wait to see what happens
It all sounds good advice, but especially the above Smile - obviously doing it safely.

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Re: Permissions

Post by Vicino on Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:51 am

I agree with getting a the second opinion, and following modicasa's pointers I would be tempted to speak to a professional gardener. The only problem then is that if your geometra feels that his nose has been put out of joint, he may be less than supportive ?
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Re: Permissions

Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:46 am

Good point V. Worse still they may well cause trouble with the comune.

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Re: Permissions

Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:10 am

I don't think that the geometra can be "ignored" at this stage, as the initial post states that he has been engaged to do the work and he has already done some work. You may end up having to pay his fees after being taken to court. I still think that you have to contact Council and then, knowing exactly what is required, you can discuss it with the geometra and see what you do. I would not recommend you to engage another professional at this stage. And try to get everything in writing. Good luck!
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Re: Permissions

Post by Admin on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:44 pm

It is not impossible that you need permission for landscaping/terracing especially if the area is at risk of landslides. If you want to do some fact-finding yourself and you really don't believe the town tecnico will help you then you should look at the town PUC (piano urbanistico comunale) and your CDU (Certificato destinazione urbanistico)for the plot(s) of land you own. You get the CDU from the comune and it can take up to 30 days. These two documents will tell you what restrictions (vincolo) there are on your land and the PUC will tell you what is permitted or not. The CDU may be available online even if it is an old version. Your Regione may also have maps online showing which areas have a hodrological risk. Gala is correct, if you have engaged the geometra then you are stuck with him until such time as he completes the works and you pay him or you mitually agree to part ways which usually involves you giving him some payment.
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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:12 am

The CDU will tell you the vincoli, but not in detail - so you could be chucking 250 euros away asking for it.  If you garden is agricutlural land then you will have one from your act of sale, and it probably hasnt changed.  
 
  However, from your posts it seems that your original post was a 'little thin' on detail! Smile - and from your explanations you do need permissions. 
However, your original question - would it be better to do it all in one go when the work is done.... Unfortunately this is Italy and trying to do that can end you up in more trouble than when you began.  It is also probable that the geometra is trying to help you in some way - he will have to provide before and after photos, your comune has Google Earth, and the way it works unless you are very canny its to 'regularise' what you have and then change it.   As you will have to ask for permissions for some work, he is sorting out everything retrosepctively and then sorting out the new things which wont be refused but need permissions.  Otherwise you could find yourself having to take down pergolas and remove stuff.   There is probably method in his madness..

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Re: Permissions

Post by Admin on Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:09 pm

Wow Modi - do they charge €250 for a CDU where you live????? Ours is free. It just costs the bollo of €16! The frst one we had when we bought the place had all the details of what we could and couldn't do to the land and also which vincoli it fell under. Then I just looked them up online. It wasn't difficult but it was obviously in Italian. Liguria does tend to have everything online. When I lived in Le Marche they didn't really have much online but maybe that has changed.
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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:23 am

Lucky you!  Here the comunes charge anywhere from 200-300 euros, and it must be asked for by a professionista ecc ecc - Jobs for the boys....

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Re: Permissions

Post by Admin on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:32 pm

Hmmmmm - I think the 'boys' are having you on. The owner has to ask for it!
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Re: Permissions

Post by Vicino on Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:15 pm

WOW !!!

You two are my absolute stars of this show, jam packed full of info, guidance and knowledge that has been invaluable over the years.

Now even you two have differing views/understandings, I can't cope !!!!  Shocked 

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Re: Permissions

Post by modicasa on Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:54 am

Not in the deep south - a mere mortal entering the hallowed portals of an ufficio urbanistico?  - Never!

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