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IVIE for 2013

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stevegwmonkseaton
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Post by DarcyDog Mon May 20, 2013 8:24 am

First topic message reminder :

In case anyone wants to know what the latest is on this subject, the papers are reporting that there are no changes expected to this tax. It has not been suspended like IMU on Prima Casa. Watch this space...
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Post by modicasa Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:18 am

true, but you assume that the Agenzia dell'Entrate know this..... Shocked

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Post by Panner Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:49 pm

Having dealt with and battled the UK Revenue for many years, as a professional accountant specialising in tax planning, I know that dealing with the Agenzia dell'Entrata will be no picnic but someone there should know the rules.

Stage 1 is to get confirmation from the UK HMRC of position and then submit Italian tax returns on the right basis via a Commercialista. After that either the Agenzia will accept or they will not. If the Agenzia disagree with HMRC on where I am resident then the two authorities must, under the DTA, come to an agreement.

Could be fun and games

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Post by Admin Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:29 pm

Hmmmm - in my experience finding anyone who knows the rules for anything is almost impossible in Italy. The rules change so often it is like trying to hit a moving target.
All the accountants I have encountered here have almost zero experience of DTA. The trick I think is finding one that is honest enought to say when they don't know something and be willing and prepared to find out. There are far too many who will bluff and bluster to sound knowledgeable. Of course it is alays the client who picks up the bill for the accountant's mistakes! Not that s/he would admit to having made any.
I'm currently on my 4th Italian accountant (or is it 5th - losing count!).
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Post by Panner Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:45 pm

Fortunately the DTA rules are fixed as part of an international agreement and can only be changed by mutual agreement following negotiations between the relevant states. They are the same in the UK as Italy. As someone who has the necessary knowledge and expertise in these areas I can guide the commercialista if necessary (once I have found one that I am comfortable with - and that will probably be the hardest part)

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Post by modicasa Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:45 am

And of course you need to remember that in Italy a commercialista who doesnt do what you ask him, doesnt do your tax return, makes you liable for fines, files false returns, etc etc  has committed no crime - and it always your fault - which I think is reprehensible.

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Post by Admin Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:15 am

modicasa is absolutely correct. The first tax return I submitted here (via the accountant of course) I was amazed that not only did I not have to sign it but I didn't even get to see it before it got submitted!!!
Accountants and the tax offcie work in very, very different ways to the UK Panner.
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Post by Panner Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:58 pm

Interesting. The commercialista I have been using so far has sent me the tax returns for approval before finalising. Unfortunately he is ceasing in Italy so I need to find a new one.

In the UK it is now quite common for the tax return not to be signed by the client, but it is approved by them. If the return is wrong in most cases it is still the client who is liable for the tax/penalties even though the accountant may have done it wrong. The client then has to claim for any losses against the accountant and hope he can get some redress.

I would always recommend using a qualified and regulated commercialista rather than a possibly unregulated one, even though it might cost a bit more.

In any country there are good and a small minority of bad accountants. Unfortunately, you sometimes may not know until something goes wrong that you have a bad one.

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Post by Admin Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:41 pm

Did those of you with a property outside Italy pay your IVIE for 2012?
If not, you can pay it with this year's tax return (ie 2013 payable in 2014) along with a small fine plus interest. It is not due if the property is worth less than €26,316 or produces an amount due of less than €200.
The amount payable is the value of your property times 0.76%. It is a type of IMU for foreign property and you will receive no bill so it has to be paid on a tax return.

Full details here

The value of your property is the value used for your council tax in the UK. Unfortunately you may not deduct the cost of your council tax from the amount due.
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Post by ghiro Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:14 pm

Admin wrote:Did those of you with a property outside Italy pay your IVIE for 2012? If not, you can pay it with this year's tax return (ie 2013 payable in 2014) along with a small fine plus interest. It is not due if the property is worth less than €26,316 or produces an amount due of less than €200. The amount payable is the value of your property times 0.76%. It is a type of IMU for foreign property and you will receive no bill so it has to be paid on a tax return. Full details here

The value of your property is the value used for your council tax in the UK. Unfortunately you may not deduct the cost of your council tax from the amount due.

I assume this only applies to people who are legally resident in Italy and not to those who are legally resident in the UK but might own a holiday home in Italy?
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Post by Admin Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:16 pm

Correct Ghiro.
Beware those who have taken out residency in Italy. You may have to end up explaining to the Italian taxman how you are 'not really' resident.
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Post by ghiro Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:18 pm

Admin wrote:Correct Ghiro. Beware those who have taken out residency in Italy. You may have to end up explaining to the Italian taxman how you are 'not really' resident.

Phewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!  Smile  Smile  Smile
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:30 pm

Admin wrote:Did those of you with a property outside Italy pay your IVIE for 2012? If not, you can pay it with this year's tax return (ie 2013 payable in 2014) along with a small fine plus interest. It is not due if the property is worth less than €26,316 or produces an amount due of less than €200. The amount payable is the value of your property times 0.76%. It is a type of IMU for foreign property and you will receive no bill so it has to be paid on a tax return. Full details here

The value of your property is the value used for your council tax in the UK. Unfortunately you may not deduct the cost of your council tax from the amount due.

It would be good for anyone following this thread at a later date if someone could clarify this.
   
    "worth less than €26,316 or produces an amount due of less than €200" are the same thing in effect.

There was a lot of discussion about the value of the property if it was in the UK at the time IVIE came in and some were saying it would be the value you bought at (exceptionally low if you bought years ago) and others the old rateable value (now Band you are in for council tax). Was it established it was the rateable/band value?

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Post by Admin Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:45 pm

Everything I have seen refers to council tax value.
So, if your house is worth 26,316 (which gives an amount due of €200) or less then you have nothing to pay. 

It's only the same thing for UK properties. There are other calculations for other countries hence the two figures.

I would imagine that is impossible to have a property with a value lower than that.
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:17 pm

Admin wrote:Everything I have seen refers to council tax value.So, if your house is worth 26,316 (which gives an amount due of €200) or less then you have nothing to pay. It's only the same thing for UK properties. There are other calculations for other countries hence the two figures.
I would imagine that is impossible to have a property with a value lower than that.

Thank you yet again Admin.... Council Tax value is in bands these days Values HERE  for anyone that need them (get your BAND HERE ) . So I would guess they would use the higher maximum value. Residency or not,  definite one to factor in when considering buying in Italy.

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