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Kercher Verdict

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Post by Geotherm on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:12 pm

This has just come through!
http://www.thelocal.it/20140130/knox-and-sollecito-face-kercher-murder-verdict

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Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:59 pm

Here is what the Americans are saying http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/amanda-knox-verdict_n_4689258.html
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Post by Geotherm on Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:11 pm

Unfortunately Gala, it is not what the Americans think that decides a verdict in another country in most cases. They are normally the ones that want to extradite people for disclosing things about them , but they are normally perfect if they do the same.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:35 pm

Geo, I was merely giving some further information on the topic. But if you want to start a discussion on it (WARNING... it may be never ending...) I think that the one who killed the Kercher girl was Rudi Guede, the subsequent story created by the prosecutors is preposterous and absolutely crazy and the worst thing is that Guede will be released this year after he got his sentence halved. Meanwhile, this is the third trial and an exercise in futility...
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Post by bluesky1 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:18 pm

So now what?

Do the Italian authorities have any power to bring a convicted murderer back to the country, so that she can serve her prison sentence?

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Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:01 pm

Well, it's not that simple and she is not, as yet, a convicted murderer. She was found guilty on the first instance and was sent to jail for 4 years. Then, she was found not guilty on appeal and released. She went back to the USA. Then, the Supreme Court overturned the "not guilty" verdict and ordered a new trial. This is the one that has recently taken place and where she was found, again, guilty. But then, this verdict shall be sent to the Supreme Court for an appeal... and then, it can go through the EU HIgher Court and so on. On the other hand, according to American law (and she is an American citizen), she has already been judged once for that crime and found not guilty on appeal. To judge her again will constitute "double jeopardy and it is against Constitutional rights. Because of this, an extradition is unlikely. The one who is in real trouble is her former boyfriend, Sollecito, who is Italian. In any case, I think that the one who did it was Guede, who will be released from jail this year after striking a deal with the prosecution to charge the couple. An awful case!


Last edited by Gala Placidia on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Post by modicasa on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:09 pm

not guilty or absolved because of what in other countries would be a mistrial?

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Post by Admin on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:23 pm

According to these lawyers Knox likely to be extradited she is likely to be extradited if her appeal fails. She hasn't been found guilty twice nor tried twice. She was found guilty originally and then the appeal acquitted her. The latest procedure (which was not a trial) overturned the acquittal so the original conviction stands. It's a subtle difference but an important one. As I understand from the press here she has one more level of appeal open to her here in Italy although without fresh evidence it must be surely hard to expect the guilty verdict to be overturned.
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Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:44 pm

Well, there are plenty of opinions on the case. I found this link most interesting http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/30/world/europe/italy-amanda-knox-verdict-explainer/
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Post by ghiro on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:18 pm

As you'll have gathered by now I'm a simple and trusting soul. 

What I don't understand is why Rudy Guede seems to have essentially disappeared from this case.  After all:
1) His palm print, shoe print and DNA (inside Meredith K) were found at the murder scene
2) He flees to Germany after the murder (hardly the action of an innocent man)
3) He elects for a 'fast track' trial in exchange for leniency (again hardly the action of an innocent man)
4) He admits he was there but suggests that, while he was in the bathroom, A Knox and R Sollecito come in and murder Meredith K
5) He is found guilty of Meredith K's murder
6) His appeals are all rejected (but his sentence is reduced from 30 to 16 years)

If one accepts 1-6 above as true then at least 2 people knew exactly what happened that night.  Rudy Guede and (unfortunately now dead) Meredith Kercher.  

My question is this.  If Meredith's family want to know the truth (and you'll notice that Rudy Guede is hardly mentioned in the report): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25975395 then why haven't they been to see him and asked him what happened?  Surely, since he was there, he can tell them?  Particularly if it can be arranged to be 'off the record'.

But then, as I said before, I'm a simple and trusting soul.
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Post by Carciofo on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:52 pm

I think I read somewhere that Rudy Guede isn't talking or that he refuses to exonerate Sollecito and Knox.  

My strong impression is that these two did not have anything to do with the murder because there is no forensic evidence to implicate them and i simply don't believe that a couple of university students (who were apparently smoking dope that night) were sufficiently savvy to completely eradicate any traces of evidence - no hair, no fingerprints, no blood, no fibres, nothing.  Now I've watched plenty episodes of Silent Witness and CSI so I feel competent to judge this  Smile  

I don't know what principles lie behind Italian criminal law, but if this took place in the UK (or the US) there would not be enough evidence to commit.

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Post by modicasa on Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:57 am

Rudy is not guilty of murder but concorso in omicidio, which means he was one of a number of people guilty of murder.  

Rudy  fled to Germany and Sollecito decided to go on a day trip to Austria yesterday, until the cops caught him at the border.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:23 am

I totally agree with ghiro. The whole case is preposterous. Guede is the one that should be kept in jail. As for Sollecito, I cannot blame him. He does not trust the Italian justice after all what has happened. He did not run away before because he knows he is innocent and was not expecting something like this to happen. Anyway, a day trip to Austria? He is entitled to do that. He has not been imprisoned and Austria is part of the EU (freedom of movement). But I would advise him to go on an extended holiday to Brazil...
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Post by Carciofo on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:36 pm

Gala Placidia wrote: Anyway, a day trip to Austria? He is entitled to do that. He has not been imprisoned and Austria is part of the EU (freedom of movement). But I would advise him to go on an extended holiday to Brazil...

I agree. I don't believe he would be safe from extradition anywhere in the EU. On the other hand he was told, I believe, not to travel so maybe he can't leave the country at all. I feel so sorry for both of them because Italian justice doesn't seem like justice at all to me, but mostly I feel sorry for Sollecito.

I hadn't realised that Guede had not been convicted of murder and that fact must present a huge legal problem because it means that the authorities have got to find others to have been involved, whether there is supporting forensic evidence or not. Very very sad situation.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:18 pm

Interesting reading: Rudy Guede
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Post by modicasa on Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:32 am

He did not run away before because he knows he is innocent 


Gaia are you his lawyer, his best friend or his confessor?   

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:59 pm

Modi, you only have to have a look at the case to realize that those two, Knox and Sollecito are not guilty. The case has been "fabricated". And Guede has made a deal to incriminate them and get a reduced sentence. He started his strategy by asking a fast track trial in which, even if convicted of murder the maximum sentence would be 30 years (instead of life), which was what he originally got. Then he appealed (and made a deal to convict the other two) and got his sentence reduced to 16 years. Yes, Knox made a few mistakes, particularly by falsely accusing P. Lumumbabut this does not convert her into a murderer. She was a very frightened young girl in a foreign country. Many people will also make mistakes under pressure and that type of circumstances.
 And you do not need to hold a Phd in criminal law to "smell the rat".
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Post by modicasa on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:06 pm

Gaia, unless you did it you cannot know whether they are guilty or not.  Nobody else does.  It is merely your opinion.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:24 pm

In that case, and according to what you just said, the police, judges, jury and prosecutors do not know what really happened... It is my opinion, after reading quite a bit about this case, that there is a serious miscarriage of justice. Unfortunately, it is not the first... and it will not be the last.
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Knox has to look nice and innocent (or does she?) if what is reported to be her earnings from this crime is true (or even half true) $4,000,000 from her book...! Seeing her interview, she is sure as hell guilty of something... Perhaps just the making of so much so much money on the back of a murdered young girl? Yes you could be lured into thinking "poor young girl, those nasty Italians", but what about Meredith Kercher and her family? Think this is missing from this discussion.

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Post by modicasa on Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:17 am

So the judge, who knows everything about the case first hand, is wrong and you are right because you've read the papers?  Beh... 
It will certainly help Amanda, she'll get a sequel out of it and possibly a film deal.   Interesting to see that the kercher family arent quite as in favour of Knox as all the press, but then they're not so photogenic.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:02 am

Come on, Modi!  Rolling Eyes  Judges are not infallible and, may I remind you that Knox and Sollecito have also been acquited once for the same crime. 
Although I feel extremely sorry for the Kercher family, they have been manipulated and, in their grief, they cannot see straight. And the British tabloids love those headlines about the two angel faced devils who commit a hideous sexual crime in a drug and boooze charged orgy. That sells a lot of papers and the British press is notorious for its sensationalism. 
Two other cases come to mind immediately, Madeleine McCann (the horrible things that have been said about the parents and believed by the populace to end up with a fresh investigation by Scotland Yard..) and years ago, Azaria Chamberlain's case in Australia (the Australian press is almost as bad as the British one and Rupert Murdoch started his journalistic career there), which destroyed the life of a whole family.
And I do not limit myself to what the press writes...
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Post by The Original Relaxed on Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:21 am

30 judges have adjudicated that Knox is guilty. 8 decided she was innocent (those were at the Hellman appeal, since annulled for insonsistencies and irrational reasoning by the court of cassazione).
But you know better Gala?
I suggest you read the transcript of the Massei motivations report which is available in English or in Italian at a site called www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com , and stop drinking the Kool Aid pumped out by Knox's PR consultants (engaged on Nov 5th, 2007)
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Post by Carciofo on Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:58 am

But I haven't read anything pumped out by Knox's PR consultants. I've only read the commentary in the British press and I agree with Gala on this one. If there was a shred of DNA I'd be entirely happy with a guilty verdict but there isn't. And the prosecution's case in the original trial was just hysteria. Witchcraft, or devil-worship or whatever it was? Come on.

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Post by The Original Relaxed on Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:11 pm

Oh for heaven's sake Carciofo - almost everything which has been published in the British press has been supplied by Knox's PR shills. It's easier for the writers in these papers to rehash a press release than to learn Italian to be able to read the court documents.
The Guardian would have more authority if it didn't allow Andrew Gumbel - he wrote Sollecito's fairy story book FGS - to publish a piece looking like news.
The Independent is slightly better, unless it lets Peter Popham out of his cage. It had a piece at the weekend http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-right-to-say-there-is-no-evidence-in-the-case-against-amanda-knox-theres-plenty-9099649.html
Two American journalists living in Italy have consistently been very accurate in their reporting, Andrea Vogt who writes for The Week (amongst others), and Barbie Nazie Ladeau (?spelling).
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