I gather Rome is not where you would want to go today!

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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:26 am

Apparently there is a big "2 for 1" going on BBC LINK - Saints

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Post by ghiro on Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:45 am

A sort of Papal BOGOF?  Very Happy  Very Happy
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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:10 pm

I watched it on TV and I am only one of the more than 2 billion people around the world who did the same. More than 1 million people from every corner of the planet attended the Vatican's ceremony, occupying St Peter's square and overflowing the Via della Conciliazione. As there were no "tickets" sold for the event, many people spent the night outdoors, waiting for the Police to open up the barriers installed to prevent people occupying the square. 
Now, I would call this a tremendous success and proves the popularity of the two Popes who are now Saints.
And it makes me proud of being a Roman Catholic.  Very Happy
By the way, jealousy is a sin  Twisted Evil 
 Twisted Evil Just kidding!
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:46 pm

Come on Gala 2 billion! I doubt many in china were watching it and I know the UK is small, but the snooker was on!!

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:38 pm

Sorry, Steve, but I heard the 2 billion figure repeated 3 times on the Spanish National News and the Catholic Television Network had already said the same thing (sorry, I cannot find an English version, but Google a translation from Spanish http://www.aciprensa.com/noticias/dos-mil-millones-de-personas-seguiran-canonizacion-de-juan-pablo-ii-y-juan-xxiii-a-traves-de-los-medios-96868/
"Dos mil millones de personas" translates as 2 billion people. Currently, we are more than 1.2 billion Catholics around the world and the figures are in constant growth. And you do not need to be a Catholic to watch an event of this magnitude. Actually, I will be interested in seeing the figures of the UK audience when they become available, as these may surprise you.  Actually, some may be regretting the actions of Henry VIII  Razz
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:43 pm

... not me Gala, despite being brought up RC.... From what I can see it was not even broadcast in the UK, but the snooker was...

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:52 pm

Well, steve, here you have the 2 billion figure quoted in plain English http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/unprecedented-canonization-ceremony-has-distinctly-polish-feel/article18287456/
and may I remind you that there are 5.7 million Catholics in the UK. So you were brought up as a RC? I will pray for your "reconversion". Miracles do happen!  Very Happy
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:22 pm

Gala Placidia wrote:Well, steve, here you have the 2 billion figure quoted in plain English http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/unprecedented-canonization-ceremony-has-distinctly-polish-feel/article18287456/and may I remind you that there are 5.7 million Catholics in the UK. So you were brought up as a RC? I will pray for your "reconversion". Miracles do happen!  Very Happy

Just goes to show how praying is a waste of time....

GlobeAndMail wrote:Before the ceremony, the Vatican’s TV service, known as CTV, estimated that the ceremony would attracte 2-billion global viewers, some of whom would see the canonization mass

Let us wait and see if we can get correct figures after the event. It is little wonder I have little faith...  Twisted Evil

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Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Doubting Thomas!  Razz
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Post by Flip on Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:00 pm

I think 2 billion may be a 'slightly' optimistic total given the subject and even though Catholicism is World wide (estimated at 1.16 billion followers) lets not forget that a large proportion of those will not have access to the media.
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Post by modicasa on Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:05 am

800.000 religious tourists in Rome, and the Vatican again doesnt foot the 7 million euro bill.  Where else in the world would one country pay for the press and publicity events of another?  (Gaia I  I didnt write this to antagonise you)

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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:42 am

Flip wrote:I think 2 billion may be a 'slightly' optimistic total given the subject and even though Catholicism is World wide (estimated at 1.16 billion followers) lets not forget that a large proportion of those will not have access to the media.

Flip, your figures are a bit old and currently, 1.2 billion may be too conservative. The Church has organised spaces  where people without facilites could or will be able to watch.
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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:03 am

modicasa wrote:800.000 religious tourists in Rome, and the Vatican again doesnt foot the 7 million euro bill.  Where else in the world would one country pay for the press and publicity events of another?  (Gaia I  I didnt write this to antagonise you)

I know, Modi, nothing personal, but you seem to forget that there is a Lateran Treaty in place, ratified by all democratic governments, which was mainly to compensate the Vatican for the huge loss of Territories which resulted from Italy's unification. 
I do not know the source of that information about press and publicity, because the Church has its own Press, TV, Radio. I would say that Italy benefits from such a huge and wide reaching network. They should be grateful.
Security inforcement  would be a different issue, although I guess that the Italian forces will have practically no problems with crowd control here. In any case, much less than with an important rock concert or a heated football match. In any case, Rome and even Italy would have got an important monetary compensation from this huge influx of tourists... and a few blessings.  Very Happy 
By the way, poor old Napolitano is very busy seeing so many heads of state and ministers who have come for the occasion...
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:40 am

I would hazard a guess Modi that they rake in an awful lot back from the punters and all those TV rights must make them a fortune... Oh no wait the Vatican will rip that off! Hopefully the local shops are not made to sell  only Vatican  holy water...  Shocked

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Post by modicasa on Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:48 am

The Lateran Treaty - dont get me started.  Negotiated by Mussolini to get Vatican support.  Ratified by corrupt Christian Democrat govt to get priests to tell people how to vote, and cemented in place by Berlusconi!  Not exactly democratic will!

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Post by Flip on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:02 am

Gala Placidia wrote:
Flip wrote:I think 2 billion may be a 'slightly' optimistic total given the subject and even though Catholicism is World wide (estimated at 1.16 billion followers) lets not forget that a large proportion of those will not have access to the media.
Flip, your figures are a bit old and currently, 1.2 billion may be too conservative. The Church has organised spaces  where people without facilites could or will be able to watch.

According to a press release I read somewhere Outdoor Screening was only being put on in Rome, and some where in Poland so no way will all the Catholics in the world plus another 800,000 million people see it and over all do they really think that nearly a third of Earths population would watch it? Fanciful at best, imagine how much an advertising slot on that gig would be!!!!
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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:51 am

Modi, the Lateran Treaty had nothing to do with Mussolini or any of the other heads of state who ratified it. It was only an overdue compensation for the territories that the Church lost in 1870 as a result of the Unification. Actually, Italy got a better deal than the Vatican, whole regions such as Emilia Romagna, Le Marche... to name a couple. And Italy got them in 1929 at 1870 pricesl What a real estate bargain! And you should know it better than anyone.  Razz
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Post by modicasa on Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:38 am

It obviously depends which history books you read! - My history books tell me that in 1929 Mussolini was head of state and signed the lateran treay with the Vatican whereby he gave them a couple of billion lire and they gave him unconditional support.

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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:27 pm

Just as you said, Modi, it all depends on the books you read and your personal beliefs, as it is all very subjective; however, some facts cannot be changed.
The Lateran Treaty was overdue for more than half a century. The Popes had been virtual prisoners in the Vatican for 59 years and without a legal status or compensation after the Churche's states, including several Italian regions, such as Emilia Romagna and Le Marche... to name a few, were taken away from them. Anyone in power, would have to do that sooner or later and Mussolini was just a signatary , just as the Cardinal who represented the Pope (as he could not leave the Vatican).
Certainly, Mussoline saw the power of the Church and wanted to get their approval. May I remind you that he was strongly anti-clerical, was married twice in civil ceremonies, his children had not been baptised and he enjoyed saying quite a few nasty things about religion and the church. Well, well, suddenly he decides to get married in the church and baptise 3 of his children !!! Mussolini and the RCC
The Church was never fooled by those concesions and, in reality, there were numerous clashes between the Church and Mussolini, which are well documented.
The compensation received by the church was actually what had been agreed back in 1870, authentic real estate bargains for the Kingdom of Italy; however, the long standing conflict had to be solved.
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Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:41 pm

Flip wrote:
Gala Placidia wrote:
Flip wrote:I think 2 billion may be a 'slightly' optimistic total given the subject and even though Catholicism is World wide (estimated at 1.16 billion followers) lets not forget that a large proportion of those will not have access to the media.
Flip, your figures are a bit old and currently, 1.2 billion may be too conservative. The Church has organised spaces  where people without facilites could or will be able to watch.
According to a press release I read somewhere Outdoor Screening was only being put on in Rome, and some where in Poland so no way will all the Catholics in the world plus another 800,000 million people see it and over all do they really think that nearly a third of Earths population would watch it? Fanciful at best, imagine how much an advertising slot on that gig would be!!!!

Flip, sorry, but I am merely repeating what different media sources are saying and I do not think that final figures will be available for a while, but it was a massive exercise http://www.lagazzettadelmezzogiorno.it/english/double-pope-canonization-to-broadcast-live-around-the-world-no706407/
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Post by Vicino on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:01 pm

I'm bored now !!

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Post by modicasa on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:22 pm

Annoyingly my long response autodeleted as i pressed send - here's an edited version -  Facts cannot be changed, thankfully.   The Papal states were subsumed into ITaly in 1870 with no compensation, just as the bourbons received no compensation for the loss the 2 Sicilies.   The Papal States were not the inalienable property of the Church - the church had assumed control over them by pacts and threats and warfare and other distinctly unchristian activities.  So, the Church lost them - the end.  Except that the pope decided that being Papally infallible should allow him to keep them, and excommunicated everyone concerned.  Pio IX wasnt a great diplomat - and auto-exiled himself and everyone else inside the Vatican.  There was no 'prisoner' status - they were free to come and go, but he wanted to make a point.  And it would have been forgotten if the Church wasnt nearly bankrupt by the 1920's.  So, along comes anti clerical Mussolini, who being a good politician worked out that he needed Church support to deliver the votes of the south of Italy which were all in the hands of the church, and give him kudos in the rest of the world.  Come 1929 he proposed and signed the Lateran treaty giving the church 1.75 billion lire, making marriage canonical law, putting crucifixes in all public buildings and banning prostitution.  In return pius XI - with no one left to excommunicate, because Pius X had excommunicated all modernists - gave unequivocal support to Mussolini.  Of course the cherry on the cake was giving the vatican diplocatic immunity which allowed most of the appalling events that have shamed the Vatican over the last 80 years.

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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:25 pm

Yeh I agree V, couple of million tops... Will have been a lot less than there will be if England get to the World Cup final, NOW that would be a real miracle....!

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Post by Flip on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:32 pm

Yeah!! When's the Footy start.
 cheers
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Post by stevegwmonkseaton on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:56 pm

12th June to 13th July....

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