Separazione dei beni

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Separazione dei beni

Post by The Original Relaxed on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:41 pm

This term used to be handy for folk where only one member of a partnership wanted to become owner of an Italian house - or indeed if a couple wished to buy it between them but retain a 50% ownership each, rather than a divided 100% ownership.

Anyway, these days the notaios are being asked to insist (as far as I can determine only from UK nationals) on the regime di comunione dei beni. 

This isn't a huge issue, but it does mean that both partners (actually, probably only husband and wife because Italy is very iffy about recognising civil partnerships) are being asked to confirm their willingness to a sale or purchase of an Italian property, even when it is held (in the case of a sale) in a single name.

This is one of those tiny details which can leap up and bite you at the time of the final act - so furnish yourself with a (photo)copy of your marriage certificate and raise this question with your notaio or estate agent ahead of time.
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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:10 am

I think that the notaries want to clearly establish whether you were married under joint or separate assets. We were asked about this six years ago when we purchased our property and had to show marriage certificate and sign a declaration. I have seen mentions of these facts in other documents. So perhaps notaries are now exercising more control than before on this subject, although I do not think it is anything "new". In any case, it is always advisable to have all your relevant documents with you and a marriage certificate or "family book" is still considered very important in Italy.
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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by DarcyDog on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:21 pm

During my last conversation on this subject with the Notary he said it is governed by the country of marriage and in the UK we only have 'communione dei beni'.

If you are not married then you're just 2 single people putting property into 50/50 shares.

Like you say, maybe they are just tightening up.

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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by modicasa on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:55 pm

Everything depends where you were married.  The default state in the UK is communion.  If you want separation you need a prenup and/or  legal separation of goods. Otherwise if only one of you sign the atto, it is immediately 50% property of your spouse.  Your civil state has huge implications for everything including IMU.   
If you are a couple who are not married it is essential that you buy in both names, as Italy does not recognise civil unions of any sex.  If your partner predeceases you then it is their relatives who inherit and not you - and obviously a valid will will also be necessary.
To be clear its not a 'term' but a legally recognised 'state'.

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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:29 pm

Ths link may be helpful to understand the matrimonal regime Italy: matrimonial regime
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Matrimonial property

Post by CharlotteOliver on Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:31 pm

This is an interesting topic, but really depends on the Notary. It is a good example of them being overcautious where they are not familiar with full implications of another legal system.  

One Notary I met asked me to point out on a map of Europe where Northern Ireland was...another Notary insisted that a spouse travelled from the UK to sign the deed, even though the property was solely in the wife's name.

I just wanted to say that in the UK, the regime is in fact most comparable to separazione dei beni, in that if you buy a property in your own name after marriage, it would NEVER be considered automatically to belong 50% to your spouse.

The Notary will want to avoid a situation where a sole owner who is married could sell the property (falsely declaring that they are single or that they are married in separazione dei beni) and the spouse come along and try to declare the sale deed null and void as they in fact were married in comunione dei beni and should have been 50% owner.

So if you were married in a common law country (UK, US, Australia etc) the best thing to declare in a deed of purchase or sale is "coniugati nel Regno Unito nella regime di separazione dei beni". 

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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by Gala Placidia on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:03 pm

An important piece of information, Charlotte. Most useful! I can also remember that our Notary asked us quite a few questions about the topic when we went to see her.
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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by ghiro on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:04 pm

No such nonsense, or required production of a marriage certificate, when we bought almost 8 years ago.  The property was simply registered in our joint names.

As a consequence we have had to pay 2 lots of IMU - 50% for OH & 50% for me ever since.  That is until earlier this month when (for administrative ease?) we were issued with a single IMU bill in OH's name only.  Shocked  Shocked

Hmmmm.  Should I be worrying?  Question
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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by modicasa on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:44 am

My clients must produce certification to prove separation of beni if they come from a comunioni dei beni country.  The notaries are very hot on this now, to stop tax evasion.   Everything depends on the default state of the country where you were wed-  and here things get complicated, as Brits who decide to get married  on a beach in Kenya fall under the default state of Kenya, and not of your citizenship - or so my notary explained to me.  It's worth getting as much paperwork as possible.

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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by Admin on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:48 am

If your visura shows you as owning 50% each then that is how you should be paying the IMU. Most comuni don't issue bills for IMU so if it were me I would continue to pay 50% each.
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Re: Separazione dei beni

Post by modicasa on Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:03 am

Exactly - if you own 50% you should pay 50%, and fill in the 'coresponsabile' codice fiscale on the F24 semplificato -  It is easy then for the comunes to cross check.

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