Please can I have some advice

Hello all

I am a new member stumbling upon this forum whilst searching answers on a dilemma, in fact I see some mebers are from the old Italian Magazine forum...so apologies I had not realised the phoenix had risen from the ashes

Anyway I own a home in Sardinia I claimed residency when we bought the house in 2004 for myself and my son only.  since then we have continued with that claim calculating our IMU on that basis...our commune turn a blind eye to this practice and encourage it for their population stats. I live and work in the UK however. and other than the IMU i do not claim residency discounts on the utilities or refuse costs

Today I have had an email from Intasure (house insurance) asking for my codice fiscale to give to the Italian revenues agency?
Obviously I am wondering why as my cf no would have been given to them when I bought the house and are my insurance company on a data protection level allowed to pass my information on?

Incidentally my cf no is in my maiden name as is the house, whereas I use my married name in the UK

I am of the mind not to give this information to Intasure and will consider cancelling the policy

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated

Thanking in advance

It seems like a general thing, as I have also had the same email. Also had to do it for the car insurance through Clements.
Just supply the info, I do not know why they need all this, but then this is Italy.

Like Geo says, this is likely common, just read this post on Abruzzolutely forum where someone else has had the same request. Clements also asked us for this same information last year.  As to the reasons, who knows, but one way or the other they will get what ever information they want on you from some where....

Your CF is the least of your problems.  You live and work in the Uk but have a holiday home in Sardinia that you tell the Italian and UK govt is your main and fiscal residence.  You 'live i' in Sardinia for your insurance company, but insure it as a holiday home.   You owe the Italian governemnt IVIE and IVIFIE on your income, IMU and TASI.  Basically you have been defrauding two tax offices for the last 11 years.  and you are worried about giving Intasure your CF?  I would sort out your situation very  quickly - the AdE has learned how to use computers and are much more efficient than your comune.

modicasa wrote:Your CF is the least of your problems.  You live and work in the Uk but have a holiday home in Sardinia that you tell the Italian and UK govt is your main and fiscal residence.  You 'live i' in Sardinia for your insurance company, but insure it as a holiday home.   You owe the Italian governemnt IVIE and IVIFIE on your income, IMU and TASI.  Basically you have been defrauding two tax offices for the last 11 years.  and you are worried about giving Intasure your CF?  I would sort out your situation very  quickly - the AdE has learned how to use computers and are much more efficient than your comune.

Thanks for all your replies....just clarification on a few points I do not earn enough in the UK to pay tax, the uk house is in my husbands name as are other valuables considered by the italian government.

When the house was bought all those years ago the advice was to claim residency and in fact we were looking to make it our permanent home however you know the saying new house new baby and thats exactly what happened but we have a disabled child in addition to two mothers whose health and needs have changed over the years and those plans have gone out of the window

Nevertheless I have not changed the way the IMU is calculated and that I can change quite quickly and will have to suffer any consequences, thankfully my defraud should not be on a large enough scale to make the national headlines.

Through these forums I have also learnt that I should have been completing tax returns also so I guess the kudos that owning a home in Sardinia brings with a saddlebag full of bureaucratic problems which I have been ignorant of

Many thanks

Salv

I wouldn't worry unnecessarily Salv, but Modi is right you need to sort something out as no matter what your income in the UK the Italian Gov, can still levy it's tax on yours or anybody else's for the matter, 'Worldwide Income'.

A friend has been asked for this by Italian house insurance company.  Perhaps they are cross-referencing insurance with ownership and tax returns payments.

Thanks for your replies

I have spoken to Intasure who state they are asking for this information so that the Italian revenues can cross reference with IPT tax levied on any insurance product as part of this will go to the Italian government.  I have asked where I would stand if I refused to provide this information....they are getting back to me on Monday.

It seems plausible however I am not so sure....

Cheers

Salv

Listen. The only good response which you have received is the scary one from modicasa. 

The fact that you have insuffiecient income in the UK to trigger the tax radar is irrelevant. Having claimed 'residency' (no doubt to reduce the stamp duty rate) is not uncommon (at all) but it is going to bite you - big time. 

Sorry - you were no doubt following 'advice' - just try taking your erstwhile advisors to court! (Not going to happen). Life is not always fair.

I'm not an expert but as I understand it there are two types of "residency" and you are only "tax resident" if you stay in Italy for over a certain number of days a year.  Being "resident" at the comune but staying less than the requisite number of days means you will have to pay the usual property taxes etc but otherwise you only pay tax on income earned in Italy.

The OP took prima casa agevolazione when she bought, took out residence and has never changed it.   To all effects and purposes whether resident or tax resident at this point means nothing as this has been going on for 12 years.  That is 12 years unpaid IMU/ICI and 12 years that as far as the AdE is concerned, the OP is living in Italy full time.  That legally requires a tax return showing her worldwide holdings.  Whether she is right or wrong doesnt concern me, but they can throw the book at her.

thanks modicasa you have been very helpful, as have you all

I made a mistake on the year of purchase sorry it was 2007, ICI was not in place then and IMU has only recently been so.

As the previous poster stated years ago I am sure I was one of many who took residency to avoid the extra tax and now there are consequences which I will resolve

I have not spent more than 3 months at a time at my home I claim no other residency discounts and if truth be known I have no residency papers in my possession

My communes and many other communes have turned a blind eye to this practice

The question I asked was to do with my insurance company and in a just a few replies I could face spending the last of my years behind bars having of course sold all my worldly goods to pay the fine I will no doubt be landed with.

Anyone good at cake baking?

Peace to all

If you are really worried, take professional advice.  Probably someone who understands both UK and Italian tax

Ok - this changes things a bit.  You took advantage of the prima casa incentives when you bought - which stated that you should take residence in your comune within 18 months.  Did you do that? - i.e. go to the ufficio anagrafe and 'immigrate'?   If not, then there is no problem, you are not resident - but obviously you should have been paying your property taxes as a non resident.   The fact you didnt immigrate by now has entered into prescrizione and the Agenzia dell'entrate cant chase you for the unpaid tax on your purchase.

Do you know Modicasa I dont believe I did, there was a lot of confusion at the time as 1year after the purchase I and my neighbour who assists me greatly went to the commune to discover I had not been made resident initially but we spoke to one of his 'friends' who assured us I would be made a resident however I have no papers constituting to that effect, I have never applied for  permeso di soggiorno nor completed a family for (cant remember its name no) 

I am listed on the AIRE stats but I am quite sure I have not received any invitations to vote in the last few years

Nonetheless the mistake I have done is not to pay the IMU in the last few years as a non resident....I will rectify this upon my return in March and be a lesson to seek my own counsel and not adhere to others advice without checking all the facts

For now this has reared its ugly head due to my suspicions over why the revenues want my cf in blanket email to Intasure....at the time of going to press I have not been approached by the ADE or any other organisation 

Seriously thanks for all your advice and I hope to contribute to the forum in a more timely and appropriate manner without a prejudgment attitude.



Cheers

Salv

Welcome Salv and best wishes in sorting out your problem(s). One thing that comes to mind is something I'm sure I read recently (oh and Modi is in m opinion the expert here) that by default if you are out of the country 3/6 months you are no longer considered resident?
May I suggest you may want to consider editing/removing your last sentence above as too much information for an open forum Looking forward to hearing more from you...

You keep dripfeeding info that changes everything!!  So, if you are in the AIRE everything changes again.  As an Italian citizen you are allowed a prima casa in Italy without having to be resident.  And this means you are elegible for prima casa discounts on property taxes.  So it may be that having a prima casa, and being the AIRE means  you dont owe anything.  (But I have to say hard pressed comunes now do demand TASI and in some cases IMU from IARE expats) - So recapping - if you are in AIRE you will probably only have to pay TASI for last year on your property, and that being an expat listed in the AIRE at your local comune means your house is fine, and you have all hte usual benefits of being a resident without being a resident.

Apologies...I am not dripfeeding on purpose ....as I work through these things are becoming clearer in my mind (I am in the group 45-49 you see so not as young as you may think)

I have looked at my F24s and I have paid my TASI...hoorah

You have put my mind at rest and for this I thank you

I have to say this weekend has been awful as my paypal account has also been compromised by Facebook (not even on FB) and £400 has whizzed out of my account and my husband has a speeding ticket but its his friend who was driving (on way back from the airport)...you know what they say these things come in threes....

Thanks again

Salv

Well Ive been stopped by the carabinieri twice in a week - so I sympathise.  But back to your original post - everybody seems to be getting these requests, so send your CF and have done.   
Personally I suspect it is all part of a plan - when Renzi came along there was talk of making buildings insurance obligatory for various reasons, and I susepct they're creating a database for when the decree comes along.

modicasa wrote:........   Personally I suspect it is all part of a plan - when Renzi came along there was talk of making buildings insurance obligatory for various reasons, and I susepct they're creating a database for when the decree comes along.

Now that will cause a stir I'm sure, if it does happen

Interesting definitions http://www.euitalianinternationaltax.com/2013/12/articles/italian-supreme-court-rules-on-individual-tax-residency/

You have to laugh at all this where by both the Italian and UK tax authorities chase all us little people and the big fish get away

I've always found HSBC in Switzerland very helpful!

ghiro wrote:I've always found HSBC in Switzerland very helpful!

Lucky you as I found the chap from their outsource department in India to be quite rude and unhelpful when I wanted to discuss my fraudulent activity on my account today...dont suppose you could give me the number that you use in Switzerland if you would be so kind

Cheers

Salv

sorry meant to say Paypals fraudulent activity on my account not literally mine.....I am getting myself quite a reputation already on this forum