Not before time

First topic message reminder :

This makes me feel better about my IMU bill: 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35197547

Geo, you Sod  , that has me drooling over my keyboard, 'Pork Pies', God how I miss them and until now had managed to happily let my fading memory remove them from my consciousness. Nothing beats a good Pork Pie with lashings of Coleman's English lavished on them.
I'm off for a Pizza to take my mind of them........

Here you go Vicino and Flip:

http://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/dickinson-and-morris-melton-mowbray-pork-pie-large.
http://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/chilled

Pity a lot of us are not closer, or we could make up a decent order!!

Actually it is not the case that residents don't pay IMU or TASI. You don't pay it on your primary residence NO MATTER WHETHER YOU ARE RESIDENT OR NOT. However, if you're not resident then it clearly isn't your primary residence hence you have to pay it. This is the same for Italians and residents. I can't see how that contravenes EU law in any way as the same rule applies to everyone.

You may pay tax on your worldwide income Casa Monal but until we have a worldwide government (God help us) none of it goes to Italy.

Admin,

Whilst I agree we don't have prime residency, so I can see the argument on why we do pay IMU and TASI - which I do not have a problem with, I think its value for money.  Hopefully the UK can come up with similar 'legal definitions' to reduce payments to non-residents as well.

HOWEVER - what is the argument for higher gas and electricity charges?  As 75% of the houses in 'my' village are second homes, how is it fair that my Swiss neighbour and I are the only ones that pay higher utility charges?

I would point out that I knew the Italians charge higher rates on various things when I decided to buy in Italy - it doesn't stop me loving the country, or wanting a holiday home here, but I do sometime despair at some of Italy's double standards

You're not correct Alan. I'll give you an example. We have legal residency at our farm (awaiting renovation) and domicile at the apartment we rent. We too have to pay higher electricity at the apartment (there's no electricity at the farmhouse yet). So we're in exactly the same boat as you but we're resident here. Same with IMU and TASI - we get no excemption at the farm as it's not our main residence. 
It is not just foreign holiday home owners but us regular (Italian and non) residents. That was my point.

Alan h.
I think, unless it has changed again recently then you could pay a equivalent resident tariff if you have a supply over 6kw, as this would be the same as what you are paying if it is 3kw.
I would have to look it all up again, as I have 15kw, but am on a special heat pump rate which is only for residents, which is a good saving.

Have you discovered red kidney beans Geo to add to your chilli con carne or do you use other beans......?

Yes Angie. Usually buy a tray of them from Lidl.They are labelled as fagioli rossi.

Geotherm wrote:Yes Angie. Usually buy a tray of them from Lidl.They are labelled as fagioli rossi.

Thx Geo, will buy a tray next time I visit....hadn't seen them before but they do brighten up a chilli !

Ahhh 'The wonders of Lidls' strike again !

Geotherm wrote:Alan h.I think, unless it has changed again recently then you could pay a equivalent resident tariff if you have a supply over 6kw, as this would be the same as what you are paying if it is 3kw.I would have to look it all up again, as I have 15kw, but am on a special heat pump rate which is only for residents, which is a good saving.

I quite enjoy running the house on 3kW - in fact I sometimes wonder what the UK's energy needs would be if they did the same.



Juggling the 3kW is part of the holiday 'fun', and isn't really any problem at all

Well we’ll have to agree to disagree Admin.  In my opinion, making non-residents pay TASI is very unfair and borders on discrimination whether you’re Italian, British, Dutch or Chinese! We are in Italy maximum 8 weeks a year, generate hardly any refuse, and recycle whatever we can, we even used to take our used batteries home before there were recycling bins in Italy. A resident lives there permanently and generates household waste daily and we have to subsidize it…that’s not fair. I have no objection to paying IMU which is fair as the amount (well let’s hope so anyway ) is not just for the commune but other local services too e.g. ambulances, police etc.
 
In answer to your earlier question about the UK council tax…yes we had to pay full UK council tax on our house despite the fact that it was unoccupied for almost 11 months while we were renovating. Discounts and/or no council tax are only relevant when there are structural changes.
 
Re electricity and gas tariffs, again this is discrimination in my opinion. How can they justify it? Can you imagine the outrage in the UK if utility companies charged second homeowners different rates?  
 
One of the major mobile operators ran a promotion in the Netherlands last year where you had to show your Dutch passport and the year of birth would be your discount. It was immediately challenged as discriminatory and within a week, it was changed to all passports as long as you were a permanent resident.
 
We love Italy but we certainly don’t have to love the bureaucracy and unfair practices.

Please can we be very clear. These additional costs or lack of discounts (as they actually are) are not for non-residents but for people that do not live in the property as their main residence. There is a difference. I totally agrre that if it was based on Nationality it would be completely discriminatory. As INPS is 27.5% , Income tax 23%, IVA 22% plus the local taxes then the property taxes on top, the idea that holiday home owners somehow subsidise us is a bit ridiculous. You're correct. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Monal, it is not unfair, the Gas/Electidity/water companies have the costs of maintaining a supply to your property 365 days a year like evry one else, if you choose only tio use the facilities for a few weeks of the year, you cut down the profit and raise the overheads of said service, that is your choice not that of the Utility Company. I think it only right they charge a premium for 'Occasional Use' as they are required to ensure you have that service on every day of the year.
You still have the option if you do not like it to take your business elsewhere  i.e. another Country.

Yes  Flip....Our Gas Company is now asking for100 plus euros a year for maintanence....because we use so little gas...said if we did not order over 500 we would have to pay for the maintanence  (want cash to be paid to driver if under 500 euros....)  never seen in 10 yrs any of that- maintanance, charge annually even though they do nothing... Crazy ?  Yet peeps on town gas just pay for what they use !   odd or what ?

Angela have you considered using the 'Bombolas' the smaller delivered gas tanks that cost about €30 a pop. We only have gas for cooking and use about 4/5 of these a year. If you only use minimal gas then surely these must be the best option. We have afiend who uses them for cooking and running gas C/H to heat water etc. He uses about 10/15 a year and has them connected in tandem outside his house (he is an occasional resident) and stocks up once or twice a year with the local chappie. Surely a better option.

Yes thx Flip for reminding me about the small 'bombolas', seems the most sensible solution to the problem.  I had considered it in the past, don't know why I did not do anything about it....put it down to forgetfulness and age !

Sorry, Ghiro, I have not "ignored" your post. I have been extremely busy with family visiting and christening of our granddaughter. By the way, and although it is not a Spanish custom, I made Italian "bomboniere" filled with sugar almonds for our guests and everyone loved them.
As for Italian taxes. Well, we do not think that they are excessive, even if they have increased dramatically over the past. We are glad to pay if this helps our local Council and fellow residents.

@Penny - my comment about 'subsiding' permanent residents was only about the refuse tax, not personal taxes etc which by the figures you gave are lower than other European countries we've lived in - the basic tax rate in the Netherlands is 33,5, 42,5 & 52,5%, then we have property tax, council tax, dyke tax, environmental tax, etc etc not to mention that EVERYONE has to have private medical insurance with the basic package @ €99.00. 

As is common in most EU countries, whether it's your main residence or second home, council tax, utility tariffs etc have to be paid but at least it's at the same tariff.

@ Flip  - I never realised that expressing one's opinion or having one that differs to the forum 'majority' is a deportation offence...must have missed that EU regulation:twisted:

@ hmm yes, let's not mention how much profit energy companies make.  Energy companies are under scrutiny again today with wholesale prices dropping by over 50%, yet only a fraction of that is passed down to consumers.

@ ghiro..well at least you got responses:lol:.

Interesting information in this article: http://www.visureitalia.com/smartfocus/pensioni-minimi-imposte-7-novita-2016/?utm_source=Privati+%2F+Cittadini&utm_campaign=8f17af19b5-14%2F01+-+News&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_500ace3ef1-8f17af19b5-198655793

Don't know what you use LPG for Angie, but as Flip says it may be much better to use the bombola cylinders.
We have 2 x 47kg ones here, just really for the gas hob on the oven. 1 is left on, while the other is turned off, so if the primary runs out we still have a full unit, so just a case of going down and opening and closing a couple of valves.
The weight of the 47 kg units is obviously something that you do not want to lug around too often, but I think most suppliers will deliver and connect them for you. Ours normally last anything from 6 months onwards for 1 tank.

@ Monal I was trying to explain why Utility Companies charge for their services which seems to be 'Unfair' to you and I think you'll find that many Countries give the same benefits, so deportation is never an option as you are not a resident.
Italy has a faltering economy and rightly so gives fiscal relief to 'Residents' by way off favourable rates, as they are seen to support the Country with regular taxes and tariffs which go to maintain the facilities that are enjoyed by Visitors. If you wish to Holiday here then be thankful for the facilities and benefits one enjoys whilst here that are propped up and monetarily supported by the local populace.

Casa Monal wrote:Ghiro..well at least you got responses:lol:.

Didn't I just:lol:!  

48 contributions from 11 different members and over 1000 views.  Agreements and disagreements.  IMU, TASI and IVA.  UK pensions, EU immigration law and utility prices.  Pork pies, LPG and kidney beans.  What else could a forum thread require? 

Magic!