Gas Tank Heating Costs Per Month?

We are strongly considering renting an apartment in a house in the Monte Rinaldo area, Le Marche, which is about 485 meters high.  The apartment is the first floor of an empty stand-alone house, built in the 1970's.  It is about 80 - 90 mq.  It only has an outdoor gas bombola or a fireplace for heat.  The owner's son had stayed there during winter some years back and stated that the prices to heat seemed "normal" and that the apartment stayed at a comfortable temperature.  The entire house has been empty for some time.

Does anyone have a rough idea of what it would cost to heat per month, assuming an average temperature of 65 degrees?  Also, do most houses use electricity to heat the water?  We haven't asked about that.

Utilities are awfully expensive in Italy. Electricity to heat the water would ruin you. Normally, houses and appartments have both heating and hot water through the same "caldaia" system. To make calculations is difficult as it depends a lot on the insulation, if any, position, etc.

Not sure I totally agree with you there Gala. Our little house (4 storey one room on top of another) is solely heated by a convection pellet stove down in the kitchen/diner, ground floor, and a wood burning stove in the living room on the 3rd floor and all our water is on 2 electric caldaias. Our bills for electricity which include electric oven are generally around €100 a month in winter and about €60 in Summer. The pellet stove uses about half a 15kg bag/day and our wood for the year costs about €180. 
If you have your electric water heaters on timers like we do you can regulate usage quite easily so not so ruinous.

We have a similar situation, Flip, as we also are 4 storey high, but in your case, you have more experience as you live there throughout the year. We had a very bad experience when we just bought the house, but we immediately changed the caldaia and had the connection to mains gas and it has been great. Our neighbours always complain about their electricity bills and they also had an extra pellet stove installed last year as one of the downstairs rooms was quite cold. They also have a wood burning one. Your electricity bill seems to be quite reasonable, but then, the final expenditure on utilities depends on many things such as insulation, aspect, etc. In our case, what we have done is to have two different circuits for heating, one for the main part of the house that we always use, living room, tv room, our bedroom and a second bedroom and another one for the self-contained apartment downstairs that is never used. I think that we save quite a lot of energy that way.

Gala Placidia wrote:We have a similar situation, Flip, as we also are 4 storey high, but in your case, you have more experience as you live there throughout the year. We had a very bad experience when we just bought the house, but we immediately changed the caldaia and had the connection to mains gas and it has been great. Our neighbours always complain about their electricity bills and they also had an extra pellet stove installed last year as one of the downstairs rooms was quite cold. They also have a wood burning one. Your electricity bill seems to be quite reasonable, but then, the final expenditure on utilities depends on many things such as insulation, aspect, etc. In our case, what we have done is to have two different circuits for heating, one for the main part of the house that we always use, living room, tv room, our bedroom and a second bedroom and another one for the self-contained apartment downstairs that is never used. I think that we save quite a lot of energy that way.

Thanks Gala and Flip,

We are thinking of asking the potential landlord if we could install a pellet or wood stove into the camino.  The house has also been empty for some years, which is also a concern.  

We have several requirements which make it a bit more difficult - we need to be able to bring over our animals if our house in the States sells, outdoor space - whether a large patio or, preferably, a garden area.

You are right to be concerned about energy costs and if you go down the wrong path you could end up spending too much of your 'going out and having a good time' money
LPG gas is the most expensive energy you can buy although when it is really cold an open fire can be worse as they can go negatively efficient. However, despite the latter comment, wood is the cheapest energy you can buy in Italy and I would expect you to use about €800 worth in a stove to be cosy for 200 days of winter. Immersion heaters deliver hot water reasonably cheaply despite electricity costing around 32c per kilowatt hour (which means a 3kW job costs €1 for an hour)

Sagraiasolar wrote:You are right to be concerned about energy costs and if you go down the wrong path you could end up spending too much of your 'going out and having a good time' moneyLPG gas is the most expensive energy you can buy although when it is really cold an open fire can be worse as they can go negatively efficient. However, despite the latter comment, wood is the cheapest energy you can buy in Italy and I would expect you to use about €800 worth in a stove to be cosy for 200 days of winter. Immersion heaters deliver hot water reasonably cheaply despite electricity costing around 32c per kilowatt hour (which means a 3kW job costs €1 for an hour)

Thanks so much Sagraiasolar,

We are now waiting to hear back about the apartment.  Thought we were all set and now he is talking about showing it to others as well as renting over the summer...  If we do get it, it sounds like wood is the way to go.  What do you think about the portable electric oil-filled heater to possibly use to warm up our bedroom?  Would that be very costly?

Lisa, I do not like the owner's attitude. He seems to be putting pressure on you. If the place has been empty for years... how does he explain the sudden increased interest on his property? Granted that due to the recent earthquakes some people may be needing other accommodation while their homes are repaired. But it all sounds too fishy...
From memory, oil filled electric heaters cost under 100 Euro depending on size, features, etc.
I would opt for portable heaters of any kind against permanent installations for a rented home,

From experience I can say the oil filled radiators are pretty expensive to run and are OK in a small room (like a bathroom) but will not keep a big room (or one with high ceilings) warm.

We've rented plenty of places with gas central heating and the approach we always took was this - use the gas central heating for an hour in the morning and and hour or two in the evening and we use a gas heater with a bombola inside for the living room. We also have an electric bathroom fan heater we put on when we want to have a shower. This doesn't work out too expensive and the gas heater kicks out a lot of pleasant heat. The negative is they generate a fair bit of humidity so we always have a dehumidifier.

As Sagra says the best is if there is a wood burning stove.

Can I ask what type of contract you will have on the appartment? If it is a residential one then it is reasonable to ask if you can put in a wood-burner / pellet stove. The landlord doesn't have to say yes of couse. If it is a transitory (or tourist) contract then I doubt very much the landlord will entertain such a thing.

Gala, there will definitely be more demand now than before for rental properties and my friends tell me prices have risen.

I suspect the "showing it to other people" remark is more about chivvying you along. How long have you been negotiating on the appartment? Italians generally don't hang around. If it was an Italian renting it they would either want it or not and that would be it. If you've been discussing it for months then maybe he's just trying to get you to commit or say you don't want it.

With your heating, then you could look at getting a portable unit, that you can move between rooms. The example below will heat or cool and has the advantage of low energy consumption, with a COP of 3.44.
I found it on Amazon UK at £329.00, but sure there will be similar available here.

http://ecoair.org/library/Air-Conditioning/Portable-Air-Conditioning/Brochure-Portable-Heat-Pump.pdf

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EcoAir-ECO15P-Mobile-Conditioning-Carbon/dp/B00E3OOS7U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1486113915&sr=8-4&keywords=air+to+air+heat+pump

We've looked at these in the past and the problem in a rented appartment is always venting them out. We've never lived anywhere with a suitable place to place the venting tube. The landlord won't let you make a hole in the wall or windows and if you just do it, you risk your deposit.

Admin.
You only need the venting out in cooling mode. We have a portable aircon unit here and just put the hose out of a window .......... simples

So when it's heating, you don' need to vent it? I didn't know that - thanks. We only have massive French windows so chucking it out the window doesn't work for us.

Admin wrote:From experience I can say the oil filled radiators are pretty expensive to run and are OK in a small room (like a bathroom) but will not keep a big room (or one with high ceilings) warm. We've rented plenty of places with gas central heating and the approach we always took was this - use the gas central heating for an hour in the morning and and hour or two in the evening and we use a gas heater with a bombola inside for the living room. We also have an electric bathroom fan heater we put on when we want to have a shower. This doesn't work out too expensive and the gas heater kicks out a lot of pleasant heat. The negative is they generate a fair bit of humidity so we always have a dehumidifier.As Sagra says the best is if there is a wood burning stove.

Can I ask what type of contract you will have on the appartment? If it is a residential one then it is reasonable to ask if you can put in a wood-burner / pellet stove. The landlord doesn't have to say yes of couse. If it is a transitory (or tourist) contract then I doubt very much the landlord will entertain such a thing.

Gala, there will definitely be more demand now than before for rental properties and my friends tell me prices have risen.

I suspect the "showing it to other people" remark is more about chivvying you along. How long have you been negotiating on the appartment? Italians generally don't hang around. If it was an Italian renting it they would either want it or not and that would be it. If you've been discussing it for months then maybe he's just trying to get you to commit or say you don't want it.

Hi Penny, 

We had initially contacted him around Christmas and then again Dec 31.  He got back to us on Jan 4 that he had been away.  We had looked at the house/apartment a few years ago as it is for sale.  Since it had been awhile, we asked for photos.  He finally was able to send them to us on January 23.  We asked a few more questions, including about heating with gas and he sent us a link about that.  We replied on January 30 to him with this message (our local Italian friend suggested we offer 300 euros per month as she felt he would take that.  He is looking for 350.  The apartment is 80-90 mq.  Here is our note to him:

Ciao Alberto,
Abbiamo fatto I calcoli di quanto potrebbe costare il riscaldamento, elettricita, ecc.  Se tu potesse fare uno sconto per l’affitto per esempio – 300 euro al mese, prendiamo l’appartamento.  E possibile che potremmo arrivare anche in agosto, settembre sicuramente. 

Abbiamo fatto ricerca e sarebbe possibile di mettere una piccola stufa di legno oppure pellet dove ce il caminetto.  Loro fanno una parete dentro il caminetto dove passa il tubo della stufa.  Non sarebbe una cosa permanente e pagaremo noi per la stufa e I lavori.   Cosi, possiamo abbasare la costa mensile del gas usando legno oppure pellet. 

Se questo ti vada bene, possiamo mandarti una caparra per sicurare l’appartamento. He replied yesterday:

Carissimi Lisa e Tony,



We then replied: 
Ciao Alberto,
Se 350 euro mensile potesse assicurare l'appartamento per noi, lo prendiammo per un anno, forse di piu, incommiciando a settembre.

We are very frustrated now and don't really know what to do. We need a place with a garden that allow our 2 dogs and 2 indoor cats.

Admin, I also send you a pm a few days ago as once we move over, we are going to explore a bit more before committing to buying in Le Marche.  I was curious about your views on where you now are versus Le Marche.

That all sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's only February. If he manages to rent it for the summer then good luck to him. He obviously means for July & August and you don't want it until September.

As you'll only be renting for a year it's unlikely to be a residential contract as they are for a minimum of 4 years usually.

I guess it would be a bit unreasonable to expect him to not get any rent in the meantime while he waits for you to arrive in September. He'll probably go for your suggestion as you've offered his asking price.

I haven't had any private message I'm afraid. I'll more than happily answer any of your questions. You might want to try sending it again.

Geotherm wrote:With your heating, then you could look at getting a portable unit, that you can move between rooms. The example below will heat or cool and has the advantage of low energy consumption, with a COP of 3.44.I found it on Amazon UK at £329.00, but sure there will be similar available here.http://ecoair.org/library/Air-Conditioning/Portable-Air-Conditioning/Brochure-Portable-Heat-Pump.pdf
https://www.amazon.co.uk/EcoAir-ECO15P-Mobile-Conditioning-Carbon/dp/B00E3OOS7U/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1486113915&sr=8-4&keywords=air+to+air+heat+pump

Thanks Geo,  I will have a look!

Admin wrote:That all sounds perfectly reasonable to me. It's only February. If he manages to rent it for the summer then good luck to him. He obviously means for July & August and you don't want it until September. As you'll only be renting for a year it's unlikely to be a residential contract as they are for a minimum of 4 years usually.I guess it would be a bit unreasonable to expect him to not get any rent in the meantime while he waits for you to arrive in September. He'll probably go for your suggestion as you've offered his asking price.

I haven't had any private message I'm afraid. I'll more than happily answer any of your questions. You might want to try sending it again.

We are actually a bit confused by the wording of his message.  He mentioned having a family coming to look at it soon and the 350 per month that he is looking for.  I know that he talked about renting for the summer too but since he also had the other comment and the eventual deposit we would give depending upon what the family has to say, that I think he would just as soon rent it now.

My sent box was full, thus I don't know what happened to my note to you.  I will send you another pm again soon.  Thanks so much.

New update everyone - we just heard back from the owner's son and we will be renting from them for one year.  He has sent a sample transitory contract that the sindaco of Monte Rinaldo gave him.  Will we be able to sign up for the Italian healthcare with one year transitory lease or do we need to ask for 18 months?  Perhaps we should ask the sindaco?

You probably will need to take out private healthcare as cover is contingent upon being resident in Italy.

With a transitory contract, you are not entitled to apply for residency at that address. That is why they are more popular with landlords. If you have a residential contract it is almost impossible to get you out.

Did I remember you saying your husband has an Italian passport and is registered in AIRE? I don't know if that changes things...

Admin wrote:You probably will need to take out private healthcare as cover is contingent upon being resident in Italy.With a transitory contract, you are not entitled to apply for residency at that address. That is why they are more popular with landlords. If you have a residential contract it is almost impossible to get you out.Did I remember you saying your husband has an Italian passport and is registered in AIRE? I don't know if that changes things...

Hi Penny,

Thanks so much for responding to my question.  My husband and I both have Italian citizenship and are registeted in AIRE so we don't need insurance to be resident.  We do, though, for piece of mind.  From what several people have told me, residency sounds like each comune interprets it differently.  Some people have said we could get it with a transitory lease with this time frame.  Guess we need to call the sindaco.

Amazed at how much the GPL costs for a very little unit. The first fill was 700 ltrs, which lasted about 2 months in a 24 mtr2 unit. Just had another 500ltrs put in, as it was well down in the tank.
So about E 1000 for possibly 4-5 months use which is ridiculous.Temperature in the little house is set at 20C
Total bill for 120sq mtrs using just electricity in the house is only about 2k and that is with a 15kw supply!!!

Geo,

Did you resolve that Ape 'eejit' situation ? Did he go away ?

V

Sorry for the delay in answering Vicino, but they have been painting the inside of the house after the repairs and WiFi is very poor in the Wendy house outside.

Have not heard any more from the ape in the APE. Possibly he did not like the Rome lawyer suggestion or the fact that it could cost him a lot more for the failing to stop incident after hitting a animal. Have noticed that he is driving a lot slower up the road now though.
Would suggest anyone who drives here gets a dashcam fitted, as is amazing how many possible incidents you could be involved in. Had 4 in just one week, with a motorbike overtaking on a blind bend and nearly creaming himself into a truck, people just pulling out in front of you.
Have decided that indicators for most italians are for putting handbags on!!!