I gather Rome is not where you would want to go today!

First topic message reminder :

Apparently there is a big "2 for 1" going on BBC LINK - Saints

modicasa wrote:The Lateran Treaty - dont get me started.  Negotiated by Mussolini to get Vatican support.  Ratified by corrupt Christian Democrat govt to get priests to tell people how to vote, and cemented in place by Berlusconi!  Not exactly democratic will!

Spot on!   The Papacy was lucky to get any compensation in the Lateran Pact for its 'huge' loss of territory - backing the forces of reaction, as Pius IX did, brought its inevitable consequences.

Modi, that summary was terrific (sorry it's taken me so long to find it).  Could you please do something similar with the rest of Italian political history?  Whenever I sit down and try boning up on this stuff I fall asleep by page 2.  Your style is exactly what's needed.  

fall asleep??  Italian history is fantastic - its up there with Russian history for all the intrigues and naughtiness.  But it does get a bit involved... the fascist period was probably one of the more straightforward bits - but it would be great to to have a potted history ... When I have a free weekend.........

I think it may be down to writing style. I gave up trying to follow all the ins and outs of the Spanish Civil War because I got lost in all the splits and my tiny brain wasn't up to the task.

I agree that Russian history is fascinating though - did you know, for example, that Russia adopted Russian Orthodoxy as a result of a kind of tender process? The prince at the time got all the major religions to pitch to him and he chose orthodoxy after reviewing the relative merits of them all. A very pragmatic approach.

History is fascinating; however, you may have to read several versions of the same event before making up you mind about who was right and who was wrong. I'm afraid that impartiality and accuracy are difficult to find. And, in most cases, history is written by the winners...

I must be the only one that finds history a little boring....

stevegwmonkseaton wrote:I must be the only one that finds history a little boring....

As a former history teacher: not the only one, Henry Ford did too.

Come on Neil, you have a very good excuse!

"That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all lessons of history"  Aldous Huxley
Perhaps this is the most important reason to dislike History....

I agree with Huxley . how can you possibly understand what is going on today and in the future if you have no clue about what went on in the past.   And yet governments seem intent on eradicating history lessons from schools as 'irrrelevant'.   

As to sources, the point of history is to learn from all sides of an argument, to only accept one argument isnt history but propaganda

I agree with you, Modi, History should be a compulsory subject for all and an important part of anyone's education.
I already said that impartiality and accuracy are difficult to find. On the other hand, there is one historian whom I have always admired and this is Edward McNall Burns. I have his original Western Civilizations and a more modern edition with collaborators. Looking for his book through the Web, I found this excellent reading list and I was delighted to realize that I also own and cherish Jones' History of Philosophy.
Here it is: 
History Reading List
I would add that History of Philosophy is more of a reference book. Several volumes long... I do not sit and read it page after page, but I use it to clarify points and doubts.
In any case, these books are the closest to the ideals of accuracy and impartiality. Then, of course, there is the fact about the reader's own unbiased approach... 

modicasa wrote:I agree with Huxley . how can you possibly understand what is going on today and in the future if you have no clue about what went on in the past.   And yet governments seem intent on eradicating history lessons from schools as 'irrrelevant'.   As to sources, the point of history is to learn from all sides of an argument, to only accept one argument isnt history but propaganda

I agree with the first part of your statement but not the second.  While it is certainly true that we should be informed of all sides of an argument, the idea that history is a judicious blend of a various points of view so that we arrive at some sort of compromise interpretation is mistaken.  Would you, for example, do this with the Holocaust?  Where, for example, is the propaganda in this single 'argument': 'The Holocaust was an unmitigated evil.'?

In reality, any history which is merely a repetition of a variety of facts would be totally boring.   Equally, any historian who merely lists points of view or opinions without reaching a judgement of his or her own is simply abdicating professional responsibility.

I learn from my own mistakes often, but rarely from other peoples and when I do how on earth can I be sure what was done, intended or otherwise? History as Gala rightly pointed out is not history at all. Even the holocaust is being denied over time by some idiots... How many does it take to change temporal history.

Facts are there, the rest is opinion.  Ignore the facts to bolster an argument is specious ignorance at best.

But history isn't just there to teach us what mistakes have been made in the past. History helps us understand ourselves, our cultures, how cultures have developed.

That said, I didn't excel in history at school and I wasn't keen to pursue it afterwards, but I find it much more interesting now that I'm getting old myself and I have a bit more perspective on life.

Carciofo wrote:But history isn't just there to teach us what mistakes have been made in the past.  History helps us understand ourselves, our cultures, how cultures have developed. That said, I didn't excel in history at school and I wasn't keen to pursue it afterwards, but I find it much more interesting now that I'm getting old myself and I have a bit more perspective on life.  

Ah "C" is that because we are history ourselves now!      

stevegwmonkseaton wrote: Ah "C" is that because we are history ourselves now!      

My other name is Methusela   

Carciofo wrote:

stevegwmonkseaton wrote: Ah "C" is that because we are history ourselves now!      

My other name is Methusela   

Ilike the one you have, my favourite veg at the moment!!!

History is written by the victor    
 

The past is the past  I'd rather deal with the here and now and not let the past dictate my future... that’s why history keeps repeating itself 

Well I agree with a certain Mr Ford ''History is more or less bunk'' you learn from the past so look to the future.

Casa Monal wrote:History is written by the victor     The past is the past  I'd rather deal with the here and now and not let the past dictate my future... that’s why history keeps repeating itself 

You're lucky you didn't live in the old Soviet bloc.  Under communism, the future was never a problem - it was always certain.  It was the pesky past which kept changing...

Quite amusing Neil, thanks! Not too sure it is in the past mind you, just the name changed from communism, still the same old regime !