ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

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ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

For all those interested in acquiring Italian Citizenship, here are the major guidelines:
http://www.esteri.it/MAE/EN/Italiani_nel_Mondo/ServiziConsolari/Cittadinanza.htm
And in English!!!!
Something very important to keep in mind. If you are looking at acquiring Italian Citizenship through ancestry, keep in mind that if your grandfather was born around the 1860's, you may not be able to get a Birth Certificate, as the Civil Registry started around that date. You may be able to replace the Birth Certificate with a Baptism Certificate, which is not an easy task, as you will possibly have to go through the Parish books. Many times, as the entries are in Latin, quite a few mistakes have been made when trying to compile indexes. I know it from experience, trying to find the baptism certificate for my husband's grandfather... We finally managed, but it was quite an ordeal. But that's another story to be told.....
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:36 pm

Sorry, Admin, but please read again the first paragraph from the Farnesina instructions:
Quote
Per poter essere fatti valere in Italia, gli atti e i documenti rilasciati da autorità straniere devono essere legalizzati dalle rappresentanze diplomatico-consolari italiane all’estero. 
Unquote
and for those who need a translation, it means:
"In order to be valid in Italy, the certificates and documents issued by a foreign authority must be legalized by the Italian diplomatic-consular representative overseas"

And this makes a lot of sense. A foreign birth or other certificate or document issued overseas may be forged and the Italian authorities in Italy would be unable to ascertain its authenticity. For this reason, they want all foreign documents with their Apostilles, legalizations and translations to be seen and certified by their diplomatic missions in the country of origin of those documents, as they will be able to check everything "in situ". In some cases, the Italian Consulates organize the translation of the documents as part of their services.
If Modi has been told otherwise, it will be good to know the outcome, because, in spite of what the Questura and Prefettura has said, the written instructions that I find say otherwise.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:34 pm

I know what you are saying but they are talking about 'autorità straniere' rather than 'autorità communitari' and this is always the problem that causes confusion.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:44 pm

Now, here it becomes more complicated, because we have autorità italiana on the one hand and autorità  straniera (and here it refers to both "communitaria" and "non-communitaria" together, as they are both straniere. The EU has not solved all those issues. 
I found this other document that also explains the treatment to be given to overseas issued documents http://www.comunebastiaumbra.gov.it/servizi/mod_serv/445-1.pdf


Last edited by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Casa Monal on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:55 pm

Apostilles or legislation of personal documents is nothing new in the EU. We had to have all our documents legalised when we moved to the Netherlands in 2000.  It wasn’t required when we moved to the UK from SA in 1990 though but it seems the UK have only recently made it a requirement…
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:24 pm

Perhaps the reason why you did not have the Apostille affixed is because South Africa became a signatory in 1995 and I understand from your post that you moved to the UK earlier. Not all countries became signatories at the same time. The Convention has simplified the acceptance of foreign documents without legalization (although it is really a standard form of legalization) and has certainly prevented a lot of fraud... Although it has not eradicated it.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:27 am

I was talking about translation not legalisation.  In the UK we have our documents legalised not by the consulate but by the UK legalisation centre - which do it all by post.   Once the document is legalised (you dont need a postille in an EU country) you can have it translated either by the consulate in the country of origin or as in my case, when you live in Italy already, you can have it translated officially in Italy without having to go through the consulate..

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:40 am

Modi, documents, in any country, not only the UK, are apostilled or legalized by a special office which depends from the Departments of Justice or Foreign Affairs of the country itself. The role of the Italian Consulate is to check that everything is correct and add a further page to the file stating that they have checked everything and that it is correct, including the translation.
The Apostille is still necessary within the EU signatories. There is a 2013 proposal in Brussels still waiting to be adopted changing the lot, but it has not been adopted http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:52013PC0228
In the proposal they aim to have multilingual certificates or simple translations. If you have the time, read that section.
But this is still waiting for the fat cats in Brussels who are not in any hurry.
In any case, the Prefettura or Questura have given you their own instructions... Just follow them and let us know how it goes.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:03 am

I will ask here too. I can't see anything to say the apostille is not required in the EU. However I also can't see anything to say that the translation has to be done by the Italian consulate in the UK which would be a bit ridiculous as we live in Italy. A translation is just a translation and there is already a procedure in Italy for having a legally recognised one so I tend to think Modi's advice is correct on the translation.
I did find this from the FCO though - "In order for documents issued in the UK to be legalized for use in Italy, they must be certified by a UK public authority or a Notary Public based in the UK and an Apostille fixed by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in London."
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Casa Monal on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:46 am

@ Gala - It wasn’t anything to do with SA being a signatory because we were leaving SA not entering SA. I recall now that it wasn’t an issue because we’re both EU citizens and although our children were born in SA we had their births registered at what was then called Somerset House and the British Embassy.
 
Moving from the UK to two European countries ten years later was far more of a bureaucratic nightmare…every document needed an apositlle  Rolling Eyes
 
@ Modi – Friends of ours have moved from the UK to Spain and France this year and both countries wanted an apostille on all their documents but neither country wanted the documents to be translated. So once again, it seems as if every EU country interprets the regulation differently or only applies what they think is sufficient.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:45 am

CM, the fact that you all had British citizenship explains everything. If you had SA documents, they would have been legalized as, back in 1990, SA had not implemented the Apostille.
You are right, Apostilles are required everywhere, even amongst EU countries. And also yes, every country has its own regulations and requirements. The "union" is only in name. We are not at all "United".
And I am concerned that some members may have their certificates simply legalized for use within the UK. For international use, even within the EU, they need to be apostilled.
This explains everything http://www.apostillelegalisation.co.uk


Last edited by Gala Placidia on Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition link)
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by modicasa on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:24 am

I suspect that in the UK legalised means apostille  - I sent my docs for legalisation, and they come back with an apostille, which cost alot less than sending them for an apostille bizarrely. 

However on my citizenship forms I found this:  

Gli atti dovranno essere debitamente tradotti in lingua italiana della suddetta Autorità .... ecc ... oppure da un traduttore ufficiale o da un iinterepete che ne attesti con le formalità previste la conformità al testo stranieri.   

So all I have to now is redo my penal certificate because I got the one for a tenner that said I dont result on the police computer, but obviously i need the one for 40 quid that says the same thing but posher. 

Anyone see the article in the Guardian the other day? 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/17/dual-nationality-passports-eu-migrants-fear-brexit-european-union-referendum

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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:30 pm

Modi, reading the instructions written in Italian on the form, I could not stop laughing when I realized that the authorities do not even know the difference between a translator (who deals with the written word in writing, so this is what they need), and an interpreter (who deals with the spoken word). These are two separate qualifications and accreditation so and candidates have different training and examinations. Granted that a few professionals hold both accreditations, but in order to officially translate a document, the person doing it must be a translator, not an interpreter. No wonder why the profession is in such a confusing situation in Italy Rolling Eyes
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:05 pm

I saw the article yesterday. It is a bit concerning, hence looking at the citizenship ourselves. I think it is highly possible that 'they' could bring in some new arrangement should the UK vote to leave the EU that would incidentally cause us a huge amount of hassle, inconvenience or at its worst mean we could not stay in Italy. As our lives are here not to mention any money and business we have it is a worry.

There is always the possibility that the EU would come down on UK citizens like a ton of bricks as a 'punishment' for the UK voting to leave the EU which is also a worry. We need only look at what is being imposed in Greece to see the way it can go.

I am hoping that the ius soli law passes fairly unchanged and then my daughter can get an Italian passport and I assume we could too (a little easier maybe?) as she is our family.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:37 pm

As an outsider, I do not think that Britex will happen. There may be some grudges, but I do not believe that a referendum will result in an exit. Current polls show a clear support to remain in the EU.
Also, I do not think that, in the event of a negative outcome, the EU will act in a revengeful way. And it is not fair to say that this is the attitude adopted with Greece. The Greeks lied and did some "creative" accounting to get in, did not make the necessary efforts to improve their situation, continued to retire at an early age when everybody had already adjusted retirement age... We could go on and on. Then comes a "populist" party, makes promises that cannot be fulfilled... And we are all punishing Greece? It isot only Germany, the IMF, banks... Many countries have pitched in. As a Spaniard, I would like to get back our 26 billions, plus the latest rescue loan. This is money that belongs to the citizens of all the countries who have "punished" Greece.
As for "jus solis" I think that it will be passed. On the other hand, I do not think that you are going to have residency problems with your British passport.Very Happy
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Admin on Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:04 pm

I think we'll have to agree to differ on Greece Gala (!) but the situation in the UK is probably too close to call at the moment and there is still plenty of time for it to go either way. I think a lot depends on what happens there and in Europe regarding migrants and the Euro. I wouldn't like to put my money on either outcome!

Maybe in the long term we wouldn't have a problem with a British passport but in the short-term, who knows.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:14 pm

The large inmigración influx is going to create additional pressures as it is a huge problem that does not have an easy solution.
In any case, and as I said before jus solis will be approved. I also think that, even in the case of Britex, EU countries will offer streamlined residency visas taking into account ownership of property, payment of taxes and integration into the Italian society.
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by ghiro on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:13 pm

I think the whole EU/Greece/Germany question is very complex.

For instance Angela Merkel recently arrived at Athens airport and went through immigration control.

Greek Immigration Official: 'Name'?
AM: 'Angela Merkel'.
Greek Immigration Official: 'Occupation'?
AM: 'No, I'm only here for a holiday'! Very Happy
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Post by Gala Placidia on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:00 am

Very funny, ghiro Razz
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Re: ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

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