Pasture land

Our house is out in the country and came with a certain amount of land (3 o 4 hectares maybe?) which we don't do anything with.  Most, but not all, of the land is chestnut woodland and in years gone by the chestnuts were definitely "farmed".  The thought has occurred to us that we might look into doing something with it but have not got around to it so far.

I've recently had an approach from a neighbouring farmer asking permission to use some of the non woodland for pasturing his animals.  I can't see any reason why we wouldn't want to allow them to do so, but I would like to understand the implications to such an arrangement.  Is he expecting me to charge him for this permission, either in money or in produce?  Can this be an informal arrangement or does anyone need to be notified?  I really haven't a clue what issues might be thrown up so any suggestions would be gratefully received.

Hmm, it can be a minefield. If it were me I would get a contract drawn up. Even if he pays you in meat, cheese or whatever else he produces it will make sure he does not have rights over your land in the future because he had use of it. I thoroughly recommend going to your local farmer's union - CIA or Coldiretti or one of the others and get them to draw up the contract and register it. They are very, very helpful usually and their fees are low.

We have around 4 hectares and we have a 'contratto di affitto' drawn up between ourselves and a local farmer.  The contract is for 10 years, but can be cancelled with 1 years notice (in case there is crop on the field).  The contract actually says that he rents the land from us for E500 per year, but no money exchanges hands by mutual agreement. The contract was drawn up by the local farmers union - Federazione provinciale coltivatori direttti, which is then registered with the Agenzia Entrate. All sounds a bit of a faff - but both parties are then protected.  There is a cost to both parties for the drawing up of the contract, but as we were renting the land to the local farmer for 'free' - he agreed that he would pick up the costs of the contract - can't remember how much - but I think it was at least around E300.  The contract has now been in place for around 3 years and we have had no issues.

Totally agree with Admin "can be a minefield", but land needs to be looked after is what we are learning... Fortunately not quite the same amount for us, but bad enough at 1ha...

As ever a very good question by Carciofo.   

We have some 5 hectares surrounding our rude dwelling in Italy, mainly forest and chestnut grove.  But adjacent to the house we have meadows.  Since we bought in 2006 we've allowed our neighbouring farmer (the muscular Paolo!) to graze his sheep, goats, pigs, horses etc on the land.  It keeps his animals happy and relieves us of the necessity to cut the grass etc.

We have no formal contract and everything is sunshine and light.  Paolo gives us cheeses, sausages etc from time to time.   As we understand it we have some 20+ years from buying before anyone else can begin to 'claim' ownership of the land.

But, perhaps, we're living in cloud cuckoo land?    

In Italy, in spite of all the smiles, good wishes and regular presents, I would not allow anyone to use my land without a proper and clear contract. As Admin stated, it is a minefield.

I tend to agree with Gala and Admin on this, but primarily because I would never be able to understand properly how to challenge any ownership vs usage legal issues should they ever arise.

V

The Romans summed it up centuries ago: "In dubio, abstine" (When in doubt, abstain) and legal issues are abundant. You can never be too cautious. It is either to seek legal advice...or to abstain.

To make it even more difficult, it is now law that all rents be paid by bank transfer no matter how small. I don't specifically know about land rent but I can't imagine it would be any different. So now if you have a registered contract then tenant needs to pay you by bank transfer.

Ghiro, I would get advice from your local farmers union. They are very helpful. CIA here in Bordighera are fantastically helpful. Or try the Coldiretti.

Thanks everyone for the helpful advice.  I've written back to our neighbour saying we are broadly happy with his idea but that we need to understand what is involved.  When we get more of an idea we'll suggest that the farmers union do us a contract.

I am presuming, by the way, that the primary consideration is the danger of unwittingly granting rights to the land, but these are in the end only legal issues - although I guess the potential for tax to be leviable is another.  Are there practical ones as well?  For example, I've read that italians "clean" their land, particularly woodland. I've always assumed that this was to prevent forest fires but there may be something more to it. Anyway our estate agent suggested that the best way to do this would be to get a couple of goats. If he has any goats, should I try and negotiate a tit for tat arrangement whereby his animals can graze on the meadowland if his goats clean our woodland? Would that be helpful to him or just to us? I'm such a townie. I really know nothing about countryside land management.

My advice (it works for me  ) is to ask yourself what you would do if you lived in England or your ‘own’ country.  Would you have an informal arrangement with a farmer if you owned land for example in beautiful Devon or Cornwall?

The problem is that you are in Italy , not in Devon or Cornwall.

Gala Placidia wrote:The problem is that you are in Italy , not in Devon or Cornwall.

Suspect "the principle is the same" is the  factor Gala....

Steve, my advice is to follow what an old proverb says: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". And Italians are very reluctant to allow any use of their land for any purpose.

Gala Placidia wrote:Steve, my advice is to follow what an old proverb says: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". And Italians are very reluctant to allow any use of their land for any purpose.

It didn't do much for the Romans..

No, the Barbarians came and they refused to do as the Roman's do... That's because they were uncivilized Barbarians.  

Sorry, wrong attitude. It may cost you money and lots of headaches. Most councils in Italy do not issue notices for rates, etc. But you are responsible for paying them. Many Councils publish a guide to IMU payments and you can calculate it yourself, or get someone to do it on your behalf. Fines for non payment are high.

Gala Placidia wrote:..... Fines for non payment are high.

How high then Gala...?

There will be fines according to the levels recommended by the EU http://www.italylegalfocus.com/en-us/Newsletters/Client-Alert-February-2013.asp (roughly about 10%) plus additional charges as set by Equitalia (Italy's official debt collectors), who have wide powers to enforce the debt collection. Quite a nightmare! Also on the Web sites of both the Agenzia dell Entrate and Equitalia there is plenty of information regarding how to make those payments, even if the person resides overseas. No excuses!

Actually Gala that piece is more about the Italian government and public bodies not paying suppliers on time (or often at all).

The fines are generally in my experience around 30% of the original sum. It's not always as clearcut as that as it depends on how late you are and whether you pay before they send you the notification with the fine. If they notify you in writing you will always pay a higher fine. If you get in first and pay a bit late then this is much reduced.

Casa Monal, the comune has no obligation to send you a bill for IMU and the responsibility is yours to ensure it is paid. That is the same for income tax, road tax and various other taxes in Italy too. If you miss the deadline then you will have to pay the fine. It just doesn't work the same as in the UK.

Renting land - do it with a contract, even if no rent is paid, do a carta privata between the two of you giving him comodato d'uso for one year - then renew it yearly.  The old adage of 20 years is for usucapione and is not for coltivatore diretti or farmers, who can claim inherited use after very little time.  It's true that all contract must now be paid by traceable means - but a comodato d'uso - very informal at least puts on paper the principle that you are allowing him to use your land for a set period of time.  THat is the important premise.  Renewing it annually saves you all sorts of problems - a contratto agricolo does give the farmer more rights than the landowner - I usually advise the owner to stipulate what can be done with the land, and usually the farmers want it because they get EU grants for farming the land.

modicasa..............superb post............invaluable

V

Admin,

As usual, a very knowledgable and very helpful post !

By the way, it is not the NUMBER of posts, it is the content !   

V

Admin, I understand that interest rates, not depending on the nature of the debt, is about 10% according to EU directives; however, this amount can be increased to some 30% (as you rightly said)  or even more, depending on the time it takes the debtor to pay the bill that Equitalia will send. If it is paid within 60 days or even up to 90 days, the surcharges may not be too high. After that... may God help the debtor, as Equitalia will start judicial debt recovery proceedings and this is what increases the original amount. The property can even be put up for auction and actually on the siets mentioned, it is easy to find propertes for auction, or "asta". Not to pay rates or taxes can become a very dangerous and expensive exercise.